July 23, 2018, 11:54:53 am

Author Topic: Banathon 2k18  (Read 1816 times)

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75hz

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Re: Banathon 2k18
« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2018, 11:37:38 am »
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Charley

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Re: Banathon 2k18
« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2018, 12:03:28 pm »
Well in my opinion, us proving this to settle anxiety should not be encouraged. Krys prolonging this discussion is taking a mile from an inch. The more info I or everyone involved in this case tells him to satisfy his anxiety is the more we shoot the process in the foot.

I wouldn't be quite so quick to write this off as only Krys's anxiety dude. Regardless of the energy that Krys is presenting his arguments with, essentially what he's asking for is more reliable proof of justice. When you say it's 'not that serious to warrant distress', you have to consider the fact that you have said that you might ban around 100 people - that is quite serious.

Like I said before, while today it's you with the banhammer, tomorrow it's going to be someone else, and so to set the precedent that only one person can wield the power to, without evidence, or corroboration, take such a huge action, is potentially quite dangerous.

If it's your evidence, and you don't want those who you've shared it with to talk about it, then so be it. I fear that this may have some bad consequences in the future, but okay, it's your call.

We've reached a dead end here, so unless anyone says anything particularly new in the next couple of days then we can lock the thread.
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krystianoo

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Re: Banathon 2k18
« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2018, 03:21:26 pm »
Gangsta, can you encourage those who you mentioned to confirm these details please? Then we can put this topic to bed.

- snip -



Well in my opinion, us proving this to settle anxiety should not be encouraged. Krys prolonging this discussion is taking a mile from an inch. The more info I or everyone involved in this case tells him to satisfy his anxiety is the more we shoot the process in the foot.

I wouldn't be quite so quick to write this off as only Krys's anxiety dude. Regardless of the energy that Krys is presenting his arguments with, essentially what he's asking for is more reliable proof of justice. When you say it's 'not that serious to warrant distress', you have to consider the fact that you have said that you might ban around 100 people - that is quite serious.

Like I said before, while today it's you with the banhammer, tomorrow it's going to be someone else, and so to set the precedent that only one person can wield the power to, without evidence, or corroboration, take such a huge action, is potentially quite dangerous.

If it's your evidence, and you don't want those who you've shared it with to talk about it, then so be it. I fear that this may have some bad consequences in the future, but okay, it's your call.

We've reached a dead end here, so unless anyone says anything particularly new in the next couple of days then we can lock the thread.

I'm glad to see someone sees reason here and surprised we're agreeing, or, at the very least - semi-agreeing with each other.

It's sad you have stooped down so low as to personally describe me as anxious regarding the bans along with a handful of other personal insults. Why?



It's very easy to see the current "banathon" is parallel to the events that happen in the real world, the one in which we all live.
What do I mean by this?

You have governments all over the world arresting / detaining people - this is not a conspiracy theory; it's fact - see places like Guantanamo Bay or CIA black sites all over the globe (some of which were in Poland, see: secret CIA prisons in Poland).

What's wrong with that?

That these people are often (if not always) detained with NO EVIDENCE pertaining to their "crime": the crime, which most often is terrorism or stuff similiar like that.

They withhold the evidence (if any exists) in the name of national security. Just like what you are doing in VCMP right now.

How can you see no dangers in this? As long as no evidence is provided, a detention (ban in this case) is / should be considered unlawful. Nobody should possess the power to ban someone with no evidence.



As for this "anxiety" bollocks:

Do you remember when Siezer was banned for speed-hacking on EC? I do.

Do you remember how cold our inter-clan (perhaps inter-person) relations were at that time? I do.

Do you remember when the evidence was refused to be held over to the public? I do.

Do you remember who fought in forum topics against the staff, many of whom were people that I could consider as friends in the game, imploring them to release the evidence based on which they banned your clanmate? I remember. I did.

Do you remember who made the evidence be released at least temporarily? I remember. I did.

Do you remember who supported me the most during this "fight" for the evidence? I remember. VU members did.

And it was all for ONE person and they all wanted to see the evidence for which their clanmate has been banned for something as serious as cheating.

Here? It's 100 people and somehow all of you think you're permitted to ban this many people without providing the public with any evidence whatsoever - going as far as calling me "anxious" in the process.

So here's your "anxiety" GangstaRas. And here's your "only crying when it's ss involved" Shawn. Always wanted things to be proven and never went back on this: no matter what my personal relations with a banned player were.
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GangstaRas

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Re: Banathon 2k18
« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2018, 03:28:23 pm »
No but I want to understand, is it the number of people that's scaring everyone? If I said 10 people, would the situation change to be less serious? If yes, why so? Same protocol, just less people getting banned. And if no, what is really the problem?

You speak of proof of justice, alright. As you would know, a common situation for admins is to make a decision in the moment of offence. You dont have proof other your present eye witness cuz its in the moment, eveyone around you ingame making server reports on this person and when you tested him yourself, you found him guilty, so you gave the appropriate sanction. Anything wrong there?

If I administrate EAD and ban say 10 individuals per month like that for hacking within 10 month period, thats a 100 people for the 10 months right? (assuming that it is not the same person each time). Now if I made a log of everyone coming up to this day that I banned for 10 months for say aimlock, my list still legit and just right? Because it happened, it is the truth. The injustice would be me giving you a second ban that you already served, isnt that right? But suppose I didnt ban them, isnt it just that I do? Delayed punishment for a noted offence. Anything wrong there?

Not to say that this the form of my evidence, an ingame experience that I cant quantify to others later on, shutting that down before any assumptions, but I say it like that to understand if this just a load of situational ethics. If the proof of justice wasnt absent when I served the people in the moment why is it absent now because I kept a list and delayed punishment? Cant be evidence, must be because I havent banned them yet. If the proof justice wasnt absent for 10 persons, why is it absent for 100?

EDIT:

Give me a moment, will reply to krys but personal insults, wah?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 03:30:21 pm by GangstaRas »
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Dr.Shawn

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Re: Banathon 2k18
« Reply #79 on: May 16, 2018, 03:35:34 pm »
Dudeee, you are two, three,four or maybe 5 faced person.
I don't trust you at all :D
As simple as that, that's the only reason you won't get any more information. You don't always support what's correct, you support what helps you.
I respect you for only one thing, you are loyal to nobody but your clan.
And that's the reason I brought SS in the conversation soo many times. I don't have anything against SS, but saying something against your clan pisses you off and I took advantage of it and had my revenge, that's all.
Sorry for heart broken love </3
Chill out, won't say anything if that's what you want. That's all tbh.
Peace.
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GangstaRas

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Re: Banathon 2k18
« Reply #80 on: May 16, 2018, 03:51:39 pm »

It's sad you have stooped down so low as to personally describe me as anxious regarding the bans along with a handful of other personal insults. Why?


Explain this part cuz I want to know what I said as a handful of other personal insults  :o. And using the term "anxious" was said in an objective manner, not an insulting manner but I apologize if you take it as an insult. I was not trying to insult you or anyone, I was giving my opinion on the situation.

Quote

It's very easy to see the current "banathon" is parallel to the events that happen in the real world, the one in which we all live.
What do I mean by this?

You have governments all over the world arresting / detaining people - this is not a conspiracy theory; it's fact - see places like Guantanamo Bay or CIA black sites all over the globe (some of which were in Poland, see: secret CIA prisons in Poland).

What's wrong with that?

That these people are often (if not always) detained with NO EVIDENCE pertaining to their "crime": the crime, which most often is terrorism or stuff similiar like that.

They withhold the evidence (if any exists) in the name of national security. Just like what you are doing in VCMP right now.

How can you see no dangers in this? As long as no evidence is provided, a detention (ban in this case) is / should be considered unlawful. Nobody should possess the power to ban someone with no evidence.


I want you to reply to what I've said regarding this, it is not a case of action without evidence, it is a case of delayed action against evidence. The only problem is that I cannot give the evidence (or all of it) as it will demolish the ongoing method to catch people. That is the only reason no evidence is given, not some injustice martial law type of thing going on.

I'll tell you what, if you want the evidence so bad to see for yourself, then I would suggest that you help me. An action like that much simpler to put this to rest.

Quote
As for this "anxiety" bollocks:

Do you remember when Siezer was banned for speed-hacking on EC? I do.

Do you remember how cold our inter-clan (perhaps inter-person) relations were at that time? I do.

Do you remember when the evidence was refused to be held over to the public? I do.

Do you remember who fought in forum topics against the staff, many of whom were people that I could consider as friends in the game, imploring them to release the evidence based on which they banned your clanmate? I remember. I did.

Do you remember who made the evidence be released at least temporarily? I remember. I did.

Do you remember who supported me the most during this "fight" for the evidence? I remember. VU members did.

And it was all for ONE person and they all wanted to see the evidence for which their clanmate has been banned for something as serious as cheating.

Here? It's 100 people and somehow all of you think you're permitted to ban this many people without providing the public with any evidence whatsoever - going as far as calling me "anxious" in the process.

So here's your "anxiety" GangstaRas. And here's your "only crying when it's ss involved" Shawn. Always wanted things to be proven and never went back on this: no matter what my personal relations with a banned player were.


Krys I'm not going to go there with you because again I did not insult or play with anyone's feelings here if that's how you feel. I've spoken to you personally about you and your assumptions, don't bring it back to me. You are my friend, stop looking at VU SS problems when you looking at me. Last time I'm gonna say it.

And again, my answer is, if you personally really want to see the evidence that badly, I open my door to you to help me, because that must be the only way you will understand. No matter how much I try, you continue to take things as a certain way, like someone is painting themselves superiour to someone else. I don't even know how you get there sometimes but that is my offer. I cannot do anything else krys.

EDIT: And if you want to go down memory lane:

You remember in the hell of our relations who heard out SS when the rest of VU clan members didn't want to hear shit at one point in a clanwar we had? I do because that was me listening.

Do you remember who spoke to WiLsOn in order to fix relations with SS and VU so that you can freely play on EAD and even administrate today and we look past the boycotting and all? I do, because I did, and sorted it out with you and Eddy.

That very same clanwar my other members were bitching about, it wasn't going to happen and it especially wasn't going to happen when in that moment I caught RiiLeX for cheating because my members had it that everyone in SS hacks. I had to beg my members not to view any you that way and take it as the individual that's wrong, not the clan. You wouldn't know that part, but if some mishap happens again where the private boards are exposed, you search for that.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 04:01:28 pm by GangstaRas »
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krystianoo

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Re: Banathon 2k18
« Reply #81 on: May 16, 2018, 05:23:21 pm »
Dudeee, you are two, three,four or maybe 5 faced person.
I don't trust you at all :D
As simple as that, that's the only reason you won't get any more information. You don't always support what's correct, you support what helps you.
I respect you for only one thing, you are loyal to nobody but your clan.
And that's the reason I brought SS in the conversation soo many times. I don't have anything against SS, but saying something against your clan pisses you off and I took advantage of it and had my revenge, that's all.
Sorry for heart broken love </3
Chill out, won't say anything if that's what you want. That's all tbh.
Peace.

Quote
Dudeee, you are two, three,four or maybe 5 faced person.
I don't trust you at all :D

I don't trust you either. So what?

Quote
As simple as that, that's the only reason you won't get any more information.

I don't want information solely for myself. I want everyone to know why their friend is banned. And so on. To know there's a sense of legitimacy to the bans.

Quote
You don't always support what's correct, you support what helps you.

That's true, and I have never denied this.
I support what I believe to be correct; sometimes, my beliefs turn out to be flawed. Nobody has managed to convince me of that in here though so far.

Quote
You don't always support what's correct, you support what helps you.

Another claim pulled out of nowhere.

Remember Vice War 5 where I as the only DnA member applied for the red team? How do you think that played out for me in the clan?

Better yet, remember when then-DnA Noori banned Ferrari32 for "admin abuse" because he (Fer) kicked someone for high ping and in turn I banned him? How did that play out for both me and him? Remember? Hint: If I hadn't done that, then we'd probably remain as DnA members until the closing rather than getting kicked and me rejoining it later with him being TRC.

Quote
And that's the reason I brought SS in the conversation soo many times. I don't have anything against SS, but saying something against your clan pisses you off and I took advantage of it and had my revenge, that's all.

Glad you admitted to being a troll then I guess?




It's sad you have stooped down so low as to personally describe me as anxious regarding the bans along with a handful of other personal insults. Why?


Explain this part cuz I want to know what I said as a handful of other personal insults  :o. And using the term "anxious" was said in an objective manner, not an insulting manner but I apologize if you take it as an insult. I was not trying to insult you or anyone, I was giving my opinion on the situation.

Quote

It's very easy to see the current "banathon" is parallel to the events that happen in the real world, the one in which we all live.
What do I mean by this?

You have governments all over the world arresting / detaining people - this is not a conspiracy theory; it's fact - see places like Guantanamo Bay or CIA black sites all over the globe (some of which were in Poland, see: secret CIA prisons in Poland).

What's wrong with that?

That these people are often (if not always) detained with NO EVIDENCE pertaining to their "crime": the crime, which most often is terrorism or stuff similiar like that.

They withhold the evidence (if any exists) in the name of national security. Just like what you are doing in VCMP right now.

How can you see no dangers in this? As long as no evidence is provided, a detention (ban in this case) is / should be considered unlawful. Nobody should possess the power to ban someone with no evidence.


I want you to reply to what I've said regarding this, it is not a case of action without evidence, it is a case of delayed action against evidence. The only problem is that I cannot give the evidence (or all of it) as it will demolish the ongoing method to catch people. That is the only reason no evidence is given, not some injustice martial law type of thing going on.

I'll tell you what, if you want the evidence so bad to see for yourself, then I would suggest that you help me. An action like that much simpler to put this to rest.

Quote
As for this "anxiety" bollocks:

Do you remember when Siezer was banned for speed-hacking on EC? I do.

Do you remember how cold our inter-clan (perhaps inter-person) relations were at that time? I do.

Do you remember when the evidence was refused to be held over to the public? I do.

Do you remember who fought in forum topics against the staff, many of whom were people that I could consider as friends in the game, imploring them to release the evidence based on which they banned your clanmate? I remember. I did.

Do you remember who made the evidence be released at least temporarily? I remember. I did.

Do you remember who supported me the most during this "fight" for the evidence? I remember. VU members did.

And it was all for ONE person and they all wanted to see the evidence for which their clanmate has been banned for something as serious as cheating.

Here? It's 100 people and somehow all of you think you're permitted to ban this many people without providing the public with any evidence whatsoever - going as far as calling me "anxious" in the process.

So here's your "anxiety" GangstaRas. And here's your "only crying when it's ss involved" Shawn. Always wanted things to be proven and never went back on this: no matter what my personal relations with a banned player were.


Krys I'm not going to go there with you because again I did not insult or play with anyone's feelings here if that's how you feel. I've spoken to you personally about you and your assumptions, don't bring it back to me. You are my friend, stop looking at VU SS problems when you looking at me. Last time I'm gonna say it.

And again, my answer is, if you personally really want to see the evidence that badly, I open my door to you to help me, because that must be the only way you will understand. No matter how much I try, you continue to take things as a certain way, like someone is painting themselves superiour to someone else. I don't even know how you get there sometimes but that is my offer. I cannot do anything else krys.

EDIT: And if you want to go down memory lane:

You remember in the hell of our relations who heard out SS when the rest of VU clan members didn't want to hear shit at one point in a clanwar we had? I do because that was me listening.

Do you remember who spoke to WiLsOn in order to fix relations with SS and VU so that you can freely play on EAD and even administrate today and we look past the boycotting and all? I do, because I did, and sorted it out with you and Eddy.

That very same clanwar my other members were bitching about, it wasn't going to happen and it especially wasn't going to happen when in that moment I caught RiiLeX for cheating because my members had it that everyone in SS hacks. I had to beg my members not to view any you that way and take it as the individual that's wrong, not the clan. You wouldn't know that part, but if some mishap happens again where the private boards are exposed, you search for that.

Quote
Explain this part cuz I want to know what I said as a handful of other personal insults  :o. And using the term "anxious" was said in an objective manner, not an insulting manner but I apologize if you take it as an insult. I was not trying to insult you or anyone, I was giving my opinion on the situation.

Quote
Krys I'm not going to go there with you because again I did not insult or play with anyone's feelings here if that's how you feel. I've spoken to you personally about you and your assumptions, don't bring it back to me. You are my friend, stop looking at VU SS problems when you looking at me. Last time I'm gonna say it.

The "you" was plural; I didn't mean solely you (if you at all).

I see your usage of the term "anxious" as wrong - I wrote why in my post above: no VU member nor I were described as anxious when wanting to see the evidence of Siezer but rather as people requesting "justice".

The entire situation was described as a response to this, too:

Quote
yes whenever there is some shit going against hackers and SS are not involved, BAN ALL MOTHER FUCKERSSSS.
If not, then man they didnt hack you cant prove, pls forgive, next chance, +1 life, innocent little being, show mercy :'(



Quote
And again, my answer is, if you personally really want to see the evidence that badly,

Why is everyone assuming I want to get into this super-secret inner-circle of anti-cheaters so badly?

I am asking you to prove that the people who you ban are cheaters by releasing the evidence you have. I express hope that this is what a noticable amount of VCMP players wants.

I can understand why you choose NOT to release your evidence and I believe I've conceded that matter. But calling me anxious for willing to see why I'm supposed to call X and Y cheaters is wrong.

Quote
You speak of proof of justice, alright. As you would know, a common situation for admins is to make a decision in the moment of offence. You dont have proof other your present eye witness cuz its in the moment, eveyone around you ingame making server reports on this person and when you tested him yourself, you found him guilty, so you gave the appropriate sanction. Anything wrong there?

Banning someone for cheating always required evidence. Especially if it's about regular players.

There's a difference between banning someone for death evading on the spot and 6 months later.
 If I get banned for pausing in the middle of combat the moment you think I did it - I can always upload a video I took with Shadowplay's instant replay and prove I'm innocent.

If you ban me 6 months later - welp, I'm guilty because I don't have a 100 TB HDD to store videos from bloody VCMP on it.

Quote
That is the only reason no evidence is given, not some injustice martial law type of thing going on.

Quote
you continue to take things as a certain way, like someone is painting themselves superiour to someone else.

As Charley says - this sets a very dangerous precedent. And he's right.

You collaborated with a bunch of other people and you are announcing that a 100 people or so will be banned for cheating and that you will not provide evidence for it: the community (a part of it at least, for some weird fucking reason) instead of protesting - accepts it.

Answer this: Doesn't this basically give you the power to ban anyone for cheating and say that evidence cannot be released due to anti-cheat integrity concerns?

It's not about trust. I trust you, sure, but I will request evidence from anyone - be it Eddy, or you, when it comes to something of the most serious value: cheating.

Cheating is the worst one can do and punishing one without proving it sets a dangerous precedent. Also it's unfair.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 05:25:40 pm by krystianoo »
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JuaN.

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Re: Banathon 2k18
« Reply #82 on: May 16, 2018, 06:22:37 pm »
oh im safe  :thumbsup:
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WiLsOn

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Re: Banathon 2k18
« Reply #83 on: May 16, 2018, 08:26:30 pm »
oh im safe  :thumbsup:
nigga with punch hack
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SpiralRock

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Re: Banathon 2k18
« Reply #84 on: May 16, 2018, 08:49:45 pm »
Can't believe you took Polak srsly for like 6 pages and quoting stuff. :DDDDD
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GangstaRas

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Re: Banathon 2k18
« Reply #85 on: May 16, 2018, 09:11:37 pm »
Answer this: Doesn't this basically give you the power to ban anyone for cheating and say that evidence cannot be released due to anti-cheat integrity concerns?

Yes it does and for all we know, without proof I can be doing anything against my word I get that as the bad precedence, too much power with no hope to refute if illegitimate. But to you krys and all advocating for this aspect, if youre inactive then let me tell you, we are in the most pitiful state in all our years with this rampant cheating all because we cant do anything about it.

You and Charley can subjectively say that even what Im doing seems against my norm character and it is just to show you that desperate times call for desperate measures. No matter the cost, I cannot sit and allow hackers to have the victory over us. The damage is already unfolding that some people are abandoning VCMP solely because of hacks, not busy lives or new interests.....hacks, making Kewun's dream get that much closer. We found a temp way around his selfish efforts that has been aiding the process but not difficult to think around, riddle of sorts. Shooting myself in the foot to provide proof of justice that gives away the riddle is not acceptable at this point, not until devs can do something lasting. In my shoes, would you allow the community to go to the dogs for the sake of proof of justice? I rather lose 100 hackers for good and give them none of my usual mercy than have our legit players leave what looks like a lawless land. I rather err big time on the side of caution than allow hacks to prosper.

Finally, note that I have not banned for any F1 or desync related hacks because those are very grey areas, not even so much wall hacks either, theyre hard to interpret even with evidence sometimes. My bans are solely on the obvious. Speed hacks, aimlock, HP hacks, trainers and any obvious cases of the previously mentioned.
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KILLERX.

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Re: Banathon 2k18
« Reply #86 on: May 16, 2018, 11:04:55 pm »
Well, what krys is saying is right because banning without proof is unfair to those who love playing in a/d mode i am just saying for other players like you guys banned Kiki for aimlock at first i started saying aimlocker to kiki but later when you guys gave him no proof that just proved he was inocent and became clean what he got Just a ban from ead he is still playing in other servers nothing got changed and currently he is applicant of mk looks like they will accept him in some time banning without evidences making no sense

I trust ganga but i cant :(
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 11:26:07 pm by KILLERX. »
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Charley

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Re: Banathon 2k18
« Reply #87 on: May 17, 2018, 06:31:17 am »
Well then ladies and gentlemen I think that concludes tonight's show.

Personally I trust you Gangsta, and I think your point about 'what's the difference between me doing this in one go, versus doing is over time', is a good one.

I don't think everyone's vision of justice is being served here, but then, it never could be. Good luck Gangsta, and thank you for trying to rid the game of cheaters! If there's one thing that's for sure, it's that everyone in their right mind hopes that you make a successful and lasting impression on the current and would-be cheaters within the community.

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Writer of excessively long posts