Bye Ajeet, HaLL and Kushh*

[Hanney]

as I understand it, you fire, scroll switch BEFORE jumping

not before >_> coze its blocked like u said. IN SAME TIME

That doesn't explain why you slide across the floor before jumping though.

*prepare for alot of blabbering non-sense that may not be relevant to whats even happening*

One theory as to why something like this could be happening is:

The player is using a modified weapon file which removes the block placed by the vc-mp devs. Perhaps the 0.1d weapon settings which allowed you to switch weapons or the faster quivalent MTA stubby version. If the player was to do this switch glitch after firing the shotgun to a player WITHOUT the mod. That player without the mod would see the glitching player sliding along the ground for a few seconds as they don't have the same weapon file as the player glitching. Meaning there game doesn't know whats happening so it just updates the XYZ position of the player and loops the last animation (probably firing) before it got confused about whats happening.

However, If the glitching player were to start sliding after the glitch then JUMP. The jump animation would be played on the other players screen INTERRUPTING the slide animation then when the jump was landed the run animation would play again putting the player back to looking normal.

Some advantages of this could be that: on the normal vc-mp without the switch glitch and just kind of stubby frogging around you wouldn't jump as far after you shot. However in Vice City if you were to be running before you jumped you would obviously go further just like real life.

If you were to quickly switch glitch on your screen you would be running straight after you done the glitch yea? Then if you were to jump as soon as you got into that running animation you would go much further since the game thinks your character is running.

If you were to be using the MTA switch glitch which seems to let you switch glitch even before you fire your gun then I think it may be possible to ghost fire, switch glitch and then long jump meaning you have reduced time on the actual firing shot and also gained that bit of extra distance by switch glitch long jumping.

Some of you will look at all that blabber i've wrote above and say "what the fuck is he talking about?" I'm not very good at explaining things out loud into words but i'm confident about some of the stuff in my head I just don't know how to get it out right.

[aXXo]

I remember Ajeet telling me " I learnt a new technique, my fighting style has changed"....

So, Mod or no Mod, You guys are using glitches in fights to have an unfair advantage over your opponents.
Which is not acceptable.

PS: Please dont use the word "Technique", call it a glitch....

[Thijn]

I heard this from Charley, And it looks familiar to the "glitch" these guys uses.

The Glitch is as follow:

You hold shift (run), Press fire, stop running, and fast after u shot press C, then run again.
It looks for other players like, The players shoots and can walk (with the shooting animation).

Go try it yourself, and see if its the Glitch they Use. (You need another guy to see it, because if you do it it looks different then a other person)

[CoLa_z0r]

lol that is the slide glitch which is not what they are talking about ;x

[Squida]

so this ultra uber secret new "technique", are they allowed in the ladder if it's glitching?

[Ajeet]

lemme corret u thijn ... lemme tell u how to do it ... shoot a stubby shot and immidiately rotate ur mouse scroll before jump.. when u jump it wil automatically change ur weapon ... thats all... no crouching is requiered in this
even hanney attempts this... u will sometimes hear the sound of python or colt or uzi in a stubby shot with this and i have heard it many times while fighting hanney.. and using this technique makes ur player look like shooting and sliding just to other player but not on one's own screen .... if its a glitch i am reaydy to change my style to my previous style..

[Ajeet]

hmm I've seen that from certain players and have done it myself. hanney is one of the players. lol...

shows itself in weapon shot sounds that do not match their weapon. gun fires, and you hear the sound of the weapon they switch to. stubby shot with python sound, stubby shot with mp5 sound, and sgb's silent stubby shot (fist switch)

ye i hear same sounds while shooting ... i use same tactic..

[Hanney]

lemme corret u thijn ... lemme tell u how to do it ... shoot a stubby shot and immidiately rotate ur mouse scroll before jump.. when u jump it wil automatically change ur weapon ... thats all... no crouching is requiered in this
even hanney attempts this... u will sometimes hear the sound of python or colt or uzi in a stubby shot with this and i have heard it many times while fighting hanney.. and using this technique makes ur player look like shooting and sliding just to other player but not on one's own screen .... if its a glitch i am reaydy to change my style to my previous style..

Still isn't explaining why the player slides on the other persons screen.

[Thijn]

lemme corret u thijn ... lemme tell u how to do it ... shoot a stubby shot and immidiately rotate ur mouse scroll before jump.. when u jump it wil automatically change ur weapon ... thats all... no crouching is requiered in this
even hanney attempts this... u will sometimes hear the sound of python or colt or uzi in a stubby shot with this and i have heard it many times while fighting hanney.. and using this technique makes ur player look like shooting and sliding just to other player but not on one's own screen .... if its a glitch i am reaydy to change my style to my previous style..

Still isn't explaining why the player slides on the other persons screen.

I guess its a vcmp Glitch then

[Hanney]

Here's a little video of what I think could be a plausable explanation.

This is a video of the MTA stubby switch implemented into the vc-mp weapon file.

Notice how I manage to run straight after shooting then straight afterwards jump. On the other players screen the jump would be the part which breaks the slide animation and replaces it with the jump. The slide animation is simply me running on my screen but on the other players since there weapon file differs it just updates the XYZ and plays the last animation like shooting.

http://www.xfire.com/video/180d88/

edit: sound on the video is all weird been doing that often lately when i record.

[Tical]

Either way, it's said in the ladder rules: No glitching.

[ULK.HeAD]

sorry for this post being so long, but when it comes to technical aspects of the game, especially in regards to competition and continuation of the game without it shitting out like MTAVC, I have a lot to say

I remember Ajeet telling me " I learnt a new technique, my fighting style has changed"....

So, Mod or no Mod, You guys are using glitches in fights to have an unfair advantage over your opponents.
Which is not acceptable.

PS: Please dont use the word "Technique", call it a glitch....

ahhhh, a realist. now I suppose you are going to tell me you stand through the entire stubby shot animation, without jumping to break it. please don't be a hypocrite... jumping out of a shot = glitching so EVERYONE HERE = GLITCHER. I guess we all have no technique, just a bunch of glitches and bugs  

Some of you will look at all that blabber i've wrote above and say "what the fuck is he talking about?" I'm not very good at explaining things out loud into words but i'm confident about some of the stuff in my head I just don't know how to get it out right.

I understand it all very clearly. one thing is I've never seen gall sliding as part of his "oddities"
everything I saw was on the shot entry, and the "mod" I suspected was a modification allowing a player's stubby to fire at a different point of the animation. "fast draw" if you will...
any jumping/sliding is caused by the python/smg sound stubby switch style, I have been watching you and the other KFJ's doing it since day 1. I used to think it was you and mattz(mainly) sneaking in crouch and switch glitches, for a fast run. every so often, the animation will get looped as you say, and mattz/you would slide a step or 2, while in a firing animation.

you can recreate almost all of the effects you're talking about with a simple crouch switch and run glitch, do it with a friend for half an hour, you will see eachother sliding and shooting all over the place. mix in some jumps, looks alot like what you're talking about...

now, about the video, can't watch it here at work, but if you have duplicated or re-created a modification which you believe is achieving the same effects as gall's/ajeet's/aeo's, then let's go in game and try it...

The Glitch is as follow:

You hold shift (run), Press fire, stop running, and fast after u shot press C, then run again.
It looks for other players like, The players shoots and can walk (with the shooting animation).

Go try it yourself, and see if its the Glitch they Use. (You need another guy to see it, because if you do it it looks different then a other person)

like I said to hanney, this is CLOSE but not it. after doing some testing with sephiroth and SGB, we managed to come up with both gall and prontera's styles within 30 minutes.

keeping it to the core of the move, leaving out the rest of it:
sprint, and while carrying your sprint weapon and holding sprint key, hold down the fire button. scroll to a heavy/walking weapon, stubby/shotgun/m60/spas... holding fire and scrolling to walk overtakes a run animation. walking while holding fire while carrying a heavy weapon, the fire animation breaks your walk animation. fast-draw.

this is all a glorified version of an old bishop-named style called "noobaim" where players hold the fire button the whole time no matter what they are doing, in MTAVC the "fast-draw" aspect showed with shot cancelling, where bullet impacts caused animation glitches which cancelled shots, depending on who landed their bullets first. I know for a fact this move-set allows a player to fire faster than opponents, we used it all day in MTAVC to shot cancel in m4/60 fights. credit goes to prontera and gall for extending this, mixing it with finesse timing, to some premium shotgun fighting. anyway,

10 minutes after discovery, I immediately noticed I had "fast draw" on SGB and sephiroth.

within 20 minutes after discovery, I felt that I could shoot them any time I wanted to, and never had to stop to expose myself.

within 25 minutes after discovery, I found that I could shoot a player, make them jump/fly for damage, and hit them again upon landing. I could shoot someone and be behind them before the shot even hit them, without any mods or switching glitches, except for hanney's python sounding stubby shot, but thats legit right guys?

within 30 minutes, I found that I could "stumble" around like aeo baiting shots with my sprint weapon, minimize jumps, and basically choose my shots based on 2nd shotting, with maybe 33% failure rate at the worst.

40 minutes, I pulled a shotgun and python, and went to mid-range to copy prontera. realized why he always beats me, due to using this "fast draw" move-set.

after 50 minutes, I realized you are all very quick to jump on a bandwagon, and jump to conclusions without doing ANY TESTING or having ANY PROOF. prontera/hazz were/are right all along...

I've got to add, the most "glitchy" part of this move-set, would actually be the hanney style python-sounding stubby shot. the whole prontera side of it, effects NO animation glitches at all, unless you pair it with the pistol-sound shotgun blast on exit, you will not be able to "fire and forget" your stubby shots and watch them land right as you nail a second one in from the other side.

another thing, all of this is extended greatly by lag time. players who have high ping times, physically have more time to operate and "stack up" animations, movements and shots before they sync to another players screen.
if they use styles that allow them to move and change things up faster than this lag time, you see all sorts of strange bugs in regards to animations and shot timing. this isn't even including random warp de-sync that occurs all the time with 3rd world shit laggers like hall/ajeet.

now, time for some disclaimer type stuff:

I'm not here trying to defend gall/ajeet/hall or to get them back into the ladder, or to argue against your decision to remove them. it is completely up to you guys to decide which glitches are alright for us to use, and which are not. I highly doubt you are about to restrict players to completing the stubby shot animation before moving, so I trust you have some method of discerning what glitches are legit and which are not, you aren't just gonna decide based on whatever you can't do or doesn't make you mad when you die, right?
the real reason I've been such a skeptic, even of my own suspicions of gall modding, is I sat and watched MTA-VC die to a bunch of un-informed and ignorant players banding together to cry about one glitch, while defending another in totally hypocritical ways. this time I have to step in and present the reality of things, can't sit by and watch it all happen again.


more disclaimer...
the move-set we discovered, CAN be enhanced with mods like any other, most likely a modification allowing some MTA style animation syncronizations to occur just like hanney said. further testing using hanney's modifications would probably be the best course to take if anyone wants to take this further, or move towards any further action on this subject within the VU ladder.


in closing... until the testing is done, in my opinion is that this ladder is broken/joke/bullshit. I'll be sure to use gall/pront style in every one of my ladder matches. sorry guys  

ps. if I called you ignorant or insulted you somehow, I aplogize. this is not about you or anyone in particular, any bitterness conveyed is latent anger from how shit went down in MTAVC 0.5... because of a handful of ignorant players, competition suffered, ladders and tournaments broke, and eventually the game itself...

[Thijn]

I've got this email from Charley, And he wanted to post it here since he deleted his own Account




Basically, I've been interested in Galls technique for a while now, and looked into it properly about about 2 months ago. I noticed that Gall slides just before he jumps, then jumps a longer distance than usual. He also occasionally turns around and jumps. I thought that perhaps he was using the deagle bug, (c-glitch) running a little bit, then jumping. I suggested it to Hanney who said he thought it could be the MTA switch glitch modified in to the weapon.dat, then demonstrated via livecam on xfire. This seemed to make more sense, but the only thing that held back the idea was that Hanney couldn't get it past VCMPs anti-cheat system and so couldn't use it online.
 
I decided to develop my deagle bug idea a bit further. I tried learning how to use it as a permanent technique, with no luck. I would be able to pull it off well about 2/5 times after a couple of weeks practise. I came to the conclusion that without years of practise (which gall has had) and still even then, it was almost impossible to get right every time because of the speed your fingers need to move in co-ordination.
 
Then I thought about macros and key binding, got a macro scripter/recorder and made this macro:
 
http://i38.tinypic.com/15ytb11.jpg
 
Then loaded it up with F as a hotkey:
 
http://i36.tinypic.com/121sygh.jpg
 
This meant that every time I pressed F, the computer would virtually press c, then scroll down, give me time to run a little bit (notice there is a delay of 80 milliseconds) then press ctrl right, which I had assigned in vcmp to jump.
 
Side note: The repeats and delays are to make it practical in vcmp, without the repeats and delays the macro program would do the actions too quickly for vcmp to pick up.
 
I videod myself doing it today, but it won't upload to any sites for some reason. In my video I also demonstrated the 'silent shot' which is the technique described by Ajeet and Gall. This technique is nothing new, most good vcmp players know how to do it and some (eg Mattz) use it on a regular basis. I have tried and tested it alot and can find no real advantage other than making a different sound.
 
The macro enabled glitch looks almost identical to the one in hanneys video
 
Thijn did however video what it looks like from his perspective:
 
http://tinypic.com/m/685z81/3
 
Because of the slow fps it is quite obvious, but at normal fps it is almost untraceable to the untrained eye. As you can see I jump way further than I would if I had just jumped.
 
After working on it for ages and thinking about the different possibilities, I do not think this is the method that Gall uses. I still think the modified weapon.dat idea is more plausible, but this is a possibility.
 
Also Gall, where did you get your copy of weapon.dat? It might be that you have it in there without even knowing, that is if you got your copy of VC from a friend or downloaded it.
 
Anyway before you decide this post was a complete waste of time, I just thought I'd show everyone one more possibility of glitching. It's just another thing to look out for. Also it became apparent after talking to many people that they've never seen all the variations of the c-glitch. If you're an admin anywhere, or an interested fighter, I advise you to go ask someone to show you. The 3 people I know who can do it well are Hanney, Cola and Head (He taught me it ages ago).
 
P.S. I just realized Head posted something relating very much to what i just said (almost identical) ah well :p
 
Charley


Also, He would like that HeaD posts an Video that shows his explanation.

P.S I know u have to read 2 very very longs posts, But it will describe alot

[Hanney]

Christ... this is becoming more indepth than Question Time in the UK.

[ULK.HeAD]

rofl yeah...

I will try to make a video today on my lunch break if I have the time

and sorta a tip for charley/all... use shift for sprint, space for jump, C for crouch, it makes all the moves much easier. also, mouse click for jump helps, mouse clicks vs keyboard keys are instaneous vs a sliding delay, so its always faster and right on time when you need it.

edit: forgot to mention this in my long-winded post... but having FL off may or may not add to the variables involved with the whole "fast-draw" flying far and fast while the shot fires sorta thing.

and semi-offtopic, when this sortof thing reached its peak/extreme in MTAVC, I witnessed a KFC player who was able to glitch and move so fast, he would fire a shot that would come behind him through his back, and "explode" his chest with gobs of blood. he "left behind" all his firing sync, and was able to move slightly ahead of them somehow making them explode inside his character. somewhat the same as the current issue... just an extreme example LOL... and most likely mods

another edit:

for reference of future proceedings... I'd like to suggest that after testing confirms that these effects are controlled independently of game modifications... you go ahead and define what determines a legit glitch or illegitimate, in regards to the ladder.

in light of the fact that the core of the game, jumping to break shot animations... the way we did it in MTAVC(before a bunch of pussies got their word to the devs), as well as XE, any glitch that has effects due to client sync is considered "illegal" while glitches that operate under the same premises as singleplayer Vice City are allowed.

examples as short as I can keep them:

crouch and switch into run after firing stubby is not allowed, because in VCMP, there are many effects of this move, mainly the desired effects, which do not take place in singleplayer. the glitch revolves entirely upon sync timing of the VCMP client in order to have its advantages. illegal.

jumping to break the firing animation is allowed, because it has no changes in its use from SP to VCMP. none of its effect are VCMP/client effected, they are all controlled through Vice City, the way R* intended the game to be.

crouching and firing spas through a car, allowed. works exactly the same in VCMP/SP.

rclick to crouch and fire m60 from behind cover. not allowed, rclick aims down the sight instead of over the shoulder.

wallglitching. allowed. works in SP just fine, no sync or VCMP client issues involved.

m60 fast switch and run. allowed, works fine in SP, devs haven't even bothered to try and block it out. jumping to break m60 causes MORE ghost/fired+forgot shots to sync than switching and running. so beloved jumping is actually closer to illegal, by abusing sync bugs to have effects not present in SP.

stubby crouch and rapid fire. so useless to an offensive player like myself, I don't even know... does this work in SP? lol...

now, for some more questionable cases. the pistol sounding shotgun blast. just as legal as jumping to break a stubby shot at any other point of the anim, assuming you do not ghost the shot.

ghost shots are about as illegal as it gets, and everyone uses them. just shows ya how hard it is to discriminate against glitches in a logical way, rather than "omg I don't like that one because I can't do it or it pwns me every time, so its not allowed!!!1"

I can keep going, but at this point I am sure you are beginning to understand the futility of trying to make certain glitches illegal.
unless of course, you are all willing to step out and pretty much draw the line at "I'm a bitch, and I can't handle a fighter who knows more about the game than I do"

there is also the history of what happened with MTAVC to support my point here...