Vice Underdogs
Archive => Vice City Ladder 2009 => Vice City Ladder => Archived Events => News and Information => Topic started by: Darfy on November 01, 2009, 04:42:09 pm
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TLK.Ajeet, TLK.HaLL and [MK]Kushh* have been kicked from the Ladder due to using modded weapon files.
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Ladder edited
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baibai bitchez
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baiiiii!
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what did i miss? please explain this
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They all got a modded weapon.dat file, suspected given by GaLL.
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As said above, GaLL has given out modded weapon.dat files to Ajeet, aeo and HaLL. This mod reduces the shotgun range which makes it's user harder to hit. Also i did not make this decision all by myself, i talked with Thijn about this and he also agreed on kicking them. If you want proof i have a screenshot of HaLL admitting the whole thing, also Sephiroth and HeAD have known about this for a while now so feel free to ask them.
Oh and Tical:
KingKong personally contacted me and requested to be removed from the Ladder. hes staying
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:(
this sucks
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proof please. thanks in advance.
akiharu
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ROFL
Gall its just another hater
who doesnt likes to lose
and i dont have modded weapon
NABS!
screw yall!
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yeah, this is one that's been rollin around in me head for a while. I never had any real proof, other than some things that look and feel "funny" after a few years experience in timing VC's animations :-X :'(
still, like akiharu said, if any documentation or proof of this can be produced, it would be greatly appreciated.
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TLK.Ajeet, TLK.HaLL and [MK]Kushh* have been kicked from the Ladder due to using modded weapon files.
bye :-*i will miss Call-Girl aka Ajeet :P i don't think aeo modded weapon files maybe something wrong :I
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Well there are no solid proof except for this (http://files.uploadffs.com/5/70515527/vcmp077.jpg), but i totally believe Hanney who found out all of this in the first place and after he demonstrated and explained the mod to me i spent some time spectating HaLL and aeo and it does make sense. Hanney has far more experience on this than most of us here, so i highly doubt he's mistaken, especially when its about 3 guys, not just one.
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Well there are no solid proof except for this (http://files.uploadffs.com/5/70515527/vcmp077.jpg), but i totally believe Hanney who found out all of this in the first place and after he demonstrated and explained the mod to me i spent some time spectating HaLL and aeo and it does make sense. Hanney has far more experience on this than most of us here, so i highly doubt he's mistaken, especially when its about 3 guys, not just one.
if Hanney say that....so lock the topic
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Well there are no solid proof except for this (http://files.uploadffs.com/5/70515527/vcmp077.jpg), but i totally believe Hanney who found out all of this in the first place and after he demonstrated and explained the mod to me i spent some time spectating HaLL and aeo and it does make sense. Hanney has far more experience on this than most of us here, so i highly doubt he's mistaken, especially when its about 3 guys, not just one.
if Hanney say that....so lock the topic
lol
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Well there are no solid proof except for this (http://files.uploadffs.com/5/70515527/vcmp077.jpg), but i totally believe Hanney who found out all of this in the first place and after he demonstrated and explained the mod to me i spent some time spectating HaLL and aeo and it does make sense. Hanney has far more experience on this than most of us here, so i highly doubt he's mistaken, especially when its about 3 guys, not just one.
Hall was kidding - I'll tell him to explain.
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ooooo didn't know about these guys using the mods D: Heard lots about GaLL using it but not these guys mhmmm.
Oh and the proof, it is so obvious hall was saying lame jokes again as usual :P But who knows wut? Hanney is a veteran mhm
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Hanney isn't even involved in the ladder
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I can see fingers being pointed at me now. My direct intention to begin with was not to have them removed from the ladder. As a few people know in the past few years I have had a lot of conflict with GaLL and all his shit including mods, glitching, being a smartass along side Tatar his clan mate from [RN]. I've banned him numerous times on LW's and had to put up with lots of annoying shit from both of them mainly [RN]Tatar. This has caused a great despise for both [RN]Ermin/GaLL and Tatar leaving me absolutely hating their guts.
Last week I met GaLL again on XE since a long time and I thought he seems okay now. Maybe I can just move on and forget the past of what he was like ages ago since time has past and maybe he has changed. I got on along with him alright no annoyance of any kind which was nice to see. A few days later I see HaLL with this mod which annoyed me since GaLL obviously gave him it since HaLL adores GaLL and wants to be like him. This annoyed me a little now that GaLL has gave his mods out to someone. Few days later I start seeing other players with the mod one person with a fake nick on Littlewhiteys which I don't remember, TLK.Ajeet and [MK]Kussh. This annoyed me even more seeing as both this is GaLL's fault and I thought he wasn't stupid anymore and now this mod's spreading like a virus. It also annoyed me that the players with the mod are perfectly capable of playing without the mod yet they still have to go and be stupid to use it and then deny they even have the mod when I can blatantly see it infront of my own eyes.
I was then whining to a few people on xfire about how GaLL's up to it again. One of these was Darfy who then thought about their involvement in the ladder and decided to take action from there onwards.
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alright well, can people start saying what mod specifically?
I've heard that it was map mods.
personally, my 6 years experience says its a mod, weapon.dat or otherwise, to either skip an animation, speed it up, or remove a restriction to the animation placed by VCMP. this manifests itself in gall, and the other players using this mod, to basically stand there, wait for someone to shoot at them, and they shoot themselves. the mod allows their animation to skip or go instantly, so they ALWAYS fire first, when they really fired second.
I'm sick of all the ambiguos crap floating around, I'd like to hear some facts instead of here-say and supposition.
can someone please duplicate this mod themself, without getting a copy from gall? seriously, there aren't that many variables to consider when modding VC for a certain outcome. any experienced VC modder should be able to hit this in 3 tries or less.
PLEASE someone duplicate this, show it, make it public, so its not just theory, supposition and "oh hanney knows best" because that's just bullshit, and this is coming from someone who said "gall is modding" within 10 seconds of seeing him.
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alright well, can people start saying what mod specifically?
this is coming from someone who said "gall is modding" within 10 seconds of seeing him.
I'm not sure exactly who your referring to but if your referring to me i've known Gall for about 3 years. As for the
weapon mods. I cannot 100% recreate it as I don't know exactly what is happening. However if I was to take an
accurate guess i'd say MTA stubby switch mixed with some kind of shot delay as if the animations were messed around with to slow it down so that opponents take a bit longer to shoot. I can't say for sure but somethings going on.
There was a Polish vc-mp hacking site awhile back made by a player called Jea who decided to try and destroy vcmp because he said that it wasn't good anymore he tried this by spreading about all kinds of little hacks that were made.
If anyone knows/remembers the website URL it might be worth giving a look on there for it.
edit: I'll try messing around with the weapon file and see if I can come up with anything lol.
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There was a Polish vc-mp hacking site awhile back made by a player called Jea who decided to try and destroy vcmp because he said that it wasn't good anymore he tried this by spreading about all kinds of little hacks that were made.
If anyone knows/remembers the website URL it might be worth giving a look on there for it.
Try this (http://web.archive.org/web/20070105095614rn_1/www.vc-mp.info/news.php)
The only problem is that the site isn't crawled fully. So almost no link works...
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to all of u lemme explain .... if u want u can try editing the weapons.dat file and have a bet it wont work in vcmp.... and its a kind of style that we are using if u wanna know i am here to explain how to play like that .... even i was shocked to see my video that my player looked like that but trust me its noting weapons.dat editing its just style which i can explain u how to do......
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its my foult? lol
ye coze i teached HaLL how to fight in my style omg omg its so wrong O_o. I can teach u all, even Hanney >_< which has some experince but now i see its not to much coze he cant decide between what is mod what is technic >_>
wanna some lessons? >_>
btw. i never cheated in fight
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this (http://files.uploadffs.com/5/70515527/vcmp077.jpg)
btw. HaLL WTF IS THAT? >_> r u insane? maybe u can gave them any log with this? and i wanna 1 for me too. coze i dont remember anything about any mod
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purely wrong hapenning in front of me.... never expected this from hanney and he is not god in vcmp whatever he says is not the truth..
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its a kind of style that we are using if u wanna know i am here to explain how to play like that ....
Please, enlighten us and tell more about this "fighting style" of your's.
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alright well, can people start saying what mod specifically?
this is coming from someone who said "gall is modding" within 10 seconds of seeing him.
I'm not sure exactly who your referring to but if your referring to me i've known Gall for about 3 years. As for the
weapon mods. I cannot 100% recreate it as I don't know exactly what is happening. However if I was to take an
accurate guess i'd say MTA stubby switch mixed with some kind of shot delay as if the animations were messed around with to slow it down so that opponents take a bit longer to shoot. I can't say for sure but somethings going on.
There was a Polish vc-mp hacking site awhile back made by a player called Jea who decided to try and destroy vcmp because he said that it wasn't good anymore he tried this by spreading about all kinds of little hacks that were made.
If anyone knows/remembers the website URL it might be worth giving a look on there for it.
edit: I'll try messing around with the weapon file and see if I can come up with anything lol.
heheh yeah mostly directed at you, but only because I knew you're the only one who would really understand what I'm saying, and possibly take up the challenge ;) :D
its a kind of style that we are using if u wanna know i am here to explain how to play like that ....
Please, enlighten us and tell more about this "fighting style" of your's.
as I understand it, you fire, scroll switch BEFORE jumping, and the jump will force the switch. this switch is normally blocked by the current VCMP version's "fix" for MTA fast switch.
I have not really tested this exact method too well just yet, but I have tried numerous methods to break various animations for various switch/shot timings in the past. I am about 60% sure that this "style" is one method I may have tried, and failed to check properly. so I must test this one out again, with a partner this time.
anyways, someone get prontera in here. he knows everything about VC's mechanics. seriously.
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as I understand it, you fire, scroll switch BEFORE jumping
not before >_> coze its blocked like u said. IN SAME TIME
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hmm I've seen that from certain players and have done it myself. hanney is one of the players. lol...
shows itself in weapon shot sounds that do not match their weapon. gun fires, and you hear the sound of the weapon they switch to. stubby shot with python sound, stubby shot with mp5 sound, and sgb's silent stubby shot (fist switch)
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as I understand it, you fire, scroll switch BEFORE jumping
not before >_> coze its blocked like u said. IN SAME TIME
That doesn't explain why you slide across the floor before jumping though.
*prepare for alot of blabbering non-sense that may not be relevant to whats even happening*
One theory as to why something like this could be happening is:
The player is using a modified weapon file which removes the block placed by the vc-mp devs. Perhaps the 0.1d weapon settings which allowed you to switch weapons or the faster quivalent MTA stubby version. If the player was to do this switch glitch after firing the shotgun to a player WITHOUT the mod. That player without the mod would see the glitching player sliding along the ground for a few seconds as they don't have the same weapon file as the player glitching. Meaning there game doesn't know whats happening so it just updates the XYZ position of the player and loops the last animation (probably firing) before it got confused about whats happening.
However, If the glitching player were to start sliding after the glitch then JUMP. The jump animation would be played on the other players screen INTERRUPTING the slide animation then when the jump was landed the run animation would play again putting the player back to looking normal.
Some advantages of this could be that: on the normal vc-mp without the switch glitch and just kind of stubby frogging around you wouldn't jump as far after you shot. However in Vice City if you were to be running before you jumped you would obviously go further just like real life.
If you were to quickly switch glitch on your screen you would be running straight after you done the glitch yea? Then if you were to jump as soon as you got into that running animation you would go much further since the game thinks your character is running.
If you were to be using the MTA switch glitch which seems to let you switch glitch even before you fire your gun then I think it may be possible to ghost fire, switch glitch and then long jump meaning you have reduced time on the actual firing shot and also gained that bit of extra distance by switch glitch long jumping.
Some of you will look at all that blabber i've wrote above and say "what the fuck is he talking about?" I'm not very good at explaining things out loud into words but i'm confident about some of the stuff in my head I just don't know how to get it out right.
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I remember Ajeet telling me " I learnt a new technique, my fighting style has changed"....
So, Mod or no Mod, You guys are using glitches in fights to have an unfair advantage over your opponents.
Which is not acceptable.
PS: Please dont use the word "Technique", call it a glitch....
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I heard this from Charley, And it looks familiar to the "glitch" these guys uses.
The Glitch is as follow:
You hold shift (run), Press fire, stop running, and fast after u shot press C, then run again.
It looks for other players like, The players shoots and can walk (with the shooting animation).
Go try it yourself, and see if its the Glitch they Use. (You need another guy to see it, because if you do it it looks different then a other person)
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lol that is the slide glitch which is not what they are talking about ;x
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so this ultra uber secret new "technique", are they allowed in the ladder if it's glitching?
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lemme corret u thijn ... lemme tell u how to do it ... shoot a stubby shot and immidiately rotate ur mouse scroll before jump.. when u jump it wil automatically change ur weapon ... thats all... no crouching is requiered in this
even hanney attempts this... u will sometimes hear the sound of python or colt or uzi in a stubby shot with this and i have heard it many times while fighting hanney.. and using this technique makes ur player look like shooting and sliding just to other player but not on one's own screen .... if its a glitch i am reaydy to change my style to my previous style..
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hmm I've seen that from certain players and have done it myself. hanney is one of the players. lol...
shows itself in weapon shot sounds that do not match their weapon. gun fires, and you hear the sound of the weapon they switch to. stubby shot with python sound, stubby shot with mp5 sound, and sgb's silent stubby shot (fist switch)
ye i hear same sounds while shooting ... i use same tactic..
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lemme corret u thijn ... lemme tell u how to do it ... shoot a stubby shot and immidiately rotate ur mouse scroll before jump.. when u jump it wil automatically change ur weapon ... thats all... no crouching is requiered in this
even hanney attempts this... u will sometimes hear the sound of python or colt or uzi in a stubby shot with this and i have heard it many times while fighting hanney.. and using this technique makes ur player look like shooting and sliding just to other player but not on one's own screen .... if its a glitch i am reaydy to change my style to my previous style..
Still isn't explaining why the player slides on the other persons screen.
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lemme corret u thijn ... lemme tell u how to do it ... shoot a stubby shot and immidiately rotate ur mouse scroll before jump.. when u jump it wil automatically change ur weapon ... thats all... no crouching is requiered in this
even hanney attempts this... u will sometimes hear the sound of python or colt or uzi in a stubby shot with this and i have heard it many times while fighting hanney.. and using this technique makes ur player look like shooting and sliding just to other player but not on one's own screen .... if its a glitch i am reaydy to change my style to my previous style..
Still isn't explaining why the player slides on the other persons screen.
I guess its a vcmp Glitch then
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Here's a little video of what I think could be a plausable explanation.
This is a video of the MTA stubby switch implemented into the vc-mp weapon file.
Notice how I manage to run straight after shooting then straight afterwards jump. On the other players screen the jump would be the part which breaks the slide animation and replaces it with the jump. The slide animation is simply me running on my screen but on the other players since there weapon file differs it just updates the XYZ and plays the last animation like shooting.
http://www.xfire.com/video/180d88/
edit: sound on the video is all weird been doing that often lately when i record.
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Either way, it's said in the ladder rules: No glitching.
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sorry for this post being so long, but when it comes to technical aspects of the game, especially in regards to competition and continuation of the game without it shitting out like MTAVC, I have a lot to say :P
I remember Ajeet telling me " I learnt a new technique, my fighting style has changed"....
So, Mod or no Mod, You guys are using glitches in fights to have an unfair advantage over your opponents.
Which is not acceptable.
PS: Please dont use the word "Technique", call it a glitch....
ahhhh, a realist. now I suppose you are going to tell me you stand through the entire stubby shot animation, without jumping to break it. please don't be a hypocrite... jumping out of a shot = glitching so EVERYONE HERE = GLITCHER. I guess we all have no technique, just a bunch of glitches and bugs ::)
Some of you will look at all that blabber i've wrote above and say "what the fuck is he talking about?" I'm not very good at explaining things out loud into words but i'm confident about some of the stuff in my head I just don't know how to get it out right.
I understand it all very clearly. one thing is I've never seen gall sliding as part of his "oddities"
everything I saw was on the shot entry, and the "mod" I suspected was a modification allowing a player's stubby to fire at a different point of the animation. "fast draw" if you will...
any jumping/sliding is caused by the python/smg sound stubby switch style, I have been watching you and the other KFJ's doing it since day 1. I used to think it was you and mattz(mainly) sneaking in crouch and switch glitches, for a fast run. every so often, the animation will get looped as you say, and mattz/you would slide a step or 2, while in a firing animation.
you can recreate almost all of the effects you're talking about with a simple crouch switch and run glitch, do it with a friend for half an hour, you will see eachother sliding and shooting all over the place. mix in some jumps, looks alot like what you're talking about...
now, about the video, can't watch it here at work, but if you have duplicated or re-created a modification which you believe is achieving the same effects as gall's/ajeet's/aeo's, then let's go in game and try it...
The Glitch is as follow:
You hold shift (run), Press fire, stop running, and fast after u shot press C, then run again.
It looks for other players like, The players shoots and can walk (with the shooting animation).
Go try it yourself, and see if its the Glitch they Use. (You need another guy to see it, because if you do it it looks different then a other person)
like I said to hanney, this is CLOSE but not it. after doing some testing with sephiroth and SGB, we managed to come up with both gall and prontera's styles within 30 minutes.
keeping it to the core of the move, leaving out the rest of it:
sprint, and while carrying your sprint weapon and holding sprint key, hold down the fire button. scroll to a heavy/walking weapon, stubby/shotgun/m60/spas... holding fire and scrolling to walk overtakes a run animation. walking while holding fire while carrying a heavy weapon, the fire animation breaks your walk animation. fast-draw.
this is all a glorified version of an old bishop-named style called "noobaim" where players hold the fire button the whole time no matter what they are doing, in MTAVC the "fast-draw" aspect showed with shot cancelling, where bullet impacts caused animation glitches which cancelled shots, depending on who landed their bullets first. I know for a fact this move-set allows a player to fire faster than opponents, we used it all day in MTAVC to shot cancel in m4/60 fights. credit goes to prontera and gall for extending this, mixing it with finesse timing, to some premium shotgun fighting. anyway,
10 minutes after discovery, I immediately noticed I had "fast draw" on SGB and sephiroth.
within 20 minutes after discovery, I felt that I could shoot them any time I wanted to, and never had to stop to expose myself.
within 25 minutes after discovery, I found that I could shoot a player, make them jump/fly for damage, and hit them again upon landing. I could shoot someone and be behind them before the shot even hit them, without any mods or switching glitches, except for hanney's python sounding stubby shot, but thats legit right guys?
within 30 minutes, I found that I could "stumble" around like aeo baiting shots with my sprint weapon, minimize jumps, and basically choose my shots based on 2nd shotting, with maybe 33% failure rate at the worst.
40 minutes, I pulled a shotgun and python, and went to mid-range to copy prontera. realized why he always beats me, due to using this "fast draw" move-set.
after 50 minutes, I realized you are all very quick to jump on a bandwagon, and jump to conclusions without doing ANY TESTING or having ANY PROOF. prontera/hazz were/are right all along...
I've got to add, the most "glitchy" part of this move-set, would actually be the hanney style python-sounding stubby shot. the whole prontera side of it, effects NO animation glitches at all, unless you pair it with the pistol-sound shotgun blast on exit, you will not be able to "fire and forget" your stubby shots and watch them land right as you nail a second one in from the other side.
another thing, all of this is extended greatly by lag time. players who have high ping times, physically have more time to operate and "stack up" animations, movements and shots before they sync to another players screen.
if they use styles that allow them to move and change things up faster than this lag time, you see all sorts of strange bugs in regards to animations and shot timing. this isn't even including random warp de-sync that occurs all the time with 3rd world shit laggers like hall/ajeet.
now, time for some disclaimer type stuff:
I'm not here trying to defend gall/ajeet/hall or to get them back into the ladder, or to argue against your decision to remove them. it is completely up to you guys to decide which glitches are alright for us to use, and which are not. I highly doubt you are about to restrict players to completing the stubby shot animation before moving, so I trust you have some method of discerning what glitches are legit and which are not, you aren't just gonna decide based on whatever you can't do or doesn't make you mad when you die, right?
the real reason I've been such a skeptic, even of my own suspicions of gall modding, is I sat and watched MTA-VC die to a bunch of un-informed and ignorant players banding together to cry about one glitch, while defending another in totally hypocritical ways. this time I have to step in and present the reality of things, can't sit by and watch it all happen again.
more disclaimer...
the move-set we discovered, CAN be enhanced with mods like any other, most likely a modification allowing some MTA style animation syncronizations to occur just like hanney said. further testing using hanney's modifications would probably be the best course to take if anyone wants to take this further, or move towards any further action on this subject within the VU ladder.
in closing... until the testing is done, in my opinion is that this ladder is broken/joke/bullshit. I'll be sure to use gall/pront style in every one of my ladder matches. sorry guys :-\
ps. if I called you ignorant or insulted you somehow, I aplogize. this is not about you or anyone in particular, any bitterness conveyed is latent anger from how shit went down in MTAVC 0.5... because of a handful of ignorant players, competition suffered, ladders and tournaments broke, and eventually the game itself...
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I've got this email from Charley, And he wanted to post it here since he deleted his own Account
Basically, I've been interested in Galls technique for a while now, and looked into it properly about about 2 months ago. I noticed that Gall slides just before he jumps, then jumps a longer distance than usual. He also occasionally turns around and jumps. I thought that perhaps he was using the deagle bug, (c-glitch) running a little bit, then jumping. I suggested it to Hanney who said he thought it could be the MTA switch glitch modified in to the weapon.dat, then demonstrated via livecam on xfire. This seemed to make more sense, but the only thing that held back the idea was that Hanney couldn't get it past VCMPs anti-cheat system and so couldn't use it online.
I decided to develop my deagle bug idea a bit further. I tried learning how to use it as a permanent technique, with no luck. I would be able to pull it off well about 2/5 times after a couple of weeks practise. I came to the conclusion that without years of practise (which gall has had) and still even then, it was almost impossible to get right every time because of the speed your fingers need to move in co-ordination.
Then I thought about macros and key binding, got a macro scripter/recorder and made this macro:
http://i38.tinypic.com/15ytb11.jpg
Then loaded it up with F as a hotkey:
http://i36.tinypic.com/121sygh.jpg
This meant that every time I pressed F, the computer would virtually press c, then scroll down, give me time to run a little bit (notice there is a delay of 80 milliseconds) then press ctrl right, which I had assigned in vcmp to jump.
Side note: The repeats and delays are to make it practical in vcmp, without the repeats and delays the macro program would do the actions too quickly for vcmp to pick up.
I videod myself doing it today, but it won't upload to any sites for some reason. In my video I also demonstrated the 'silent shot' which is the technique described by Ajeet and Gall. This technique is nothing new, most good vcmp players know how to do it and some (eg Mattz) use it on a regular basis. I have tried and tested it alot and can find no real advantage other than making a different sound.
The macro enabled glitch looks almost identical to the one in hanneys video
Thijn did however video what it looks like from his perspective:
http://tinypic.com/m/685z81/3
Because of the slow fps it is quite obvious, but at normal fps it is almost untraceable to the untrained eye. As you can see I jump way further than I would if I had just jumped.
After working on it for ages and thinking about the different possibilities, I do not think this is the method that Gall uses. I still think the modified weapon.dat idea is more plausible, but this is a possibility.
Also Gall, where did you get your copy of weapon.dat? It might be that you have it in there without even knowing, that is if you got your copy of VC from a friend or downloaded it.
Anyway before you decide this post was a complete waste of time, I just thought I'd show everyone one more possibility of glitching. It's just another thing to look out for. Also it became apparent after talking to many people that they've never seen all the variations of the c-glitch. If you're an admin anywhere, or an interested fighter, I advise you to go ask someone to show you. The 3 people I know who can do it well are Hanney, Cola and Head (He taught me it ages ago).
P.S. I just realized Head posted something relating very much to what i just said (almost identical) ah well :p
Charley
Also, He would like that HeaD posts an Video that shows his explanation.
P.S I know u have to read 2 very very longs posts, But it will describe alot ;D
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Christ... this is becoming more indepth than Question Time in the UK.
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rofl yeah...
I will try to make a video today on my lunch break if I have the time :P
and sorta a tip for charley/all... use shift for sprint, space for jump, C for crouch, it makes all the moves much easier. also, mouse click for jump helps, mouse clicks vs keyboard keys are instaneous vs a sliding delay, so its always faster and right on time when you need it.
edit: forgot to mention this in my long-winded post... but having FL off may or may not add to the variables involved with the whole "fast-draw" flying far and fast while the shot fires sorta thing.
and semi-offtopic, when this sortof thing reached its peak/extreme in MTAVC, I witnessed a KFC player who was able to glitch and move so fast, he would fire a shot that would come behind him through his back, and "explode" his chest with gobs of blood. he "left behind" all his firing sync, and was able to move slightly ahead of them somehow making them explode inside his character. somewhat the same as the current issue... just an extreme example LOL... and most likely mods
another edit:
for reference of future proceedings... I'd like to suggest that after testing confirms that these effects are controlled independently of game modifications... you go ahead and define what determines a legit glitch or illegitimate, in regards to the ladder.
in light of the fact that the core of the game, jumping to break shot animations... the way we did it in MTAVC(before a bunch of pussies got their word to the devs), as well as XE, any glitch that has effects due to client sync is considered "illegal" while glitches that operate under the same premises as singleplayer Vice City are allowed.
examples as short as I can keep them:
crouch and switch into run after firing stubby is not allowed, because in VCMP, there are many effects of this move, mainly the desired effects, which do not take place in singleplayer. the glitch revolves entirely upon sync timing of the VCMP client in order to have its advantages. illegal.
jumping to break the firing animation is allowed, because it has no changes in its use from SP to VCMP. none of its effect are VCMP/client effected, they are all controlled through Vice City, the way R* intended the game to be.
crouching and firing spas through a car, allowed. works exactly the same in VCMP/SP.
rclick to crouch and fire m60 from behind cover. not allowed, rclick aims down the sight instead of over the shoulder.
wallglitching. allowed. works in SP just fine, no sync or VCMP client issues involved.
m60 fast switch and run. allowed, works fine in SP, devs haven't even bothered to try and block it out. jumping to break m60 causes MORE ghost/fired+forgot shots to sync than switching and running. so beloved jumping is actually closer to illegal, by abusing sync bugs to have effects not present in SP.
stubby crouch and rapid fire. so useless to an offensive player like myself, I don't even know... does this work in SP? lol...
now, for some more questionable cases. the pistol sounding shotgun blast. just as legal as jumping to break a stubby shot at any other point of the anim, assuming you do not ghost the shot.
ghost shots are about as illegal as it gets, and everyone uses them. just shows ya how hard it is to discriminate against glitches in a logical way, rather than "omg I don't like that one because I can't do it or it pwns me every time, so its not allowed!!!1"
I can keep going, but at this point I am sure you are beginning to understand the futility of trying to make certain glitches illegal.
unless of course, you are all willing to step out and pretty much draw the line at "I'm a bitch, and I can't handle a fighter who knows more about the game than I do"
there is also the history of what happened with MTAVC to support my point here...
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Well about the glitch with the quick change as soon as your shot is fired which makes the stubby sound this is it.
http://www.xfire.com/video/1818a0/
Some ghost shots in the video but there not done intentionally happens if I miss time my switch and jump to early.
Also yet again the audios fucked up by xfire. Dunno why it's doing it but I swear i wasn't listening to some music there that sounds like me thumping my head repeatedly off my desk while a dying cat is used as bagpipes.
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I swear i wasn't listening to some music
i swear i am not using any mods....and hanney ..... sometimes on my screen some people use m60 while sliding so it might be because of lag or some warping ... thats all
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i see some ppl sliding after jumping, but that only happens if the player gets pushed/punched ;/
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ye thanks cola for reminding me of that point can u explain hanney why it happens what cola said ....?? no because player is punched on ouur screen and is lying on our screen and sliding but his own screen the player might be shooting at that time... i use this stratergy when someone uses shotgun... can u explain why so happens??? lolz its vcmp bugs nothing else and btw why i am banned from LW ?? is it for the same reason??? -.-
i would also like to say that noone has described about pawan... we both use same PC but his style is still same but mine is different... its only the matter of style not mods.....
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This mod reduces the shotgun range which makes it's user harder to hit.
really ... ok i will give u a modified weapons.dat file with stubby range more than that of shotgun ... try using it in vcmp.. it will only display more range on our screen neither it will have any effect on opposite player nor the opponets would be able to see such long range.. trust me when i was hacker i tried this thing but. it dosent works .... guys vcmp has been made very cleaverly by baksan go ask him no modded files will work here except some texture files....
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Yeah, he said reduced range not extended. If you reduce the range it will only look reduced on your screen however if you were to still fire at other players as normal it would still act as normal.
As for teh punching. That happens because the punching isn't properly synced. In 0.1d there was a similiar problem where you could shoot an opponent with a shotgun and they would fall down on your screen and slide around for awhile meaning lots of there shots weren't seen. This made fights last much longer.
Though they fixed this in 0.3 and made the game check to see if that player had actually fell before it played the animation.
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alright, I saw everyone's videos, and went out last night for 5 minutes using everything.
seems a combination of the "noob-aim" shot entry, along with the pistol-sound shotgun exit, is the "technique"
the crouch/switch glitch into 1 step sprint and jump after firing, would also probably explain a higher instance of sliding+firing, something I have previously stated I see from nearly all players. some of the higher instance players including mattz, as I have pointed out... basically crouching or ANY rapid animation breaks which sync along with multiple direction changes within the lag(ping) time = animation glitches, warp, sliding, etc.
not to say that weapon.dat, or other modification allowing an animation to skip, play extremely fast, or to fire at a different point in the anim, something like that... would not definately give an advantage. if these types of mods are possible in VCMP, I do not know.
ajeet saying certain mods are not possible is a totally invalid arguement. as admin on XE, I have seen the full gamut of mods, including and not limited to weapon.dat damage mods, as well as animation/speed cheats allowing players to run/slide at several different speeds, sometimes while firing a spas or minigun.
however, at this point, I am satisfied with prontera saying to hazz that this IS NOT a mod, and is achieved by technique.
on top of that, I've found how to use said technique myself, which improves my rate of fire and speed greatly. after discovering it, and using it half-assed, the effect was fairly easy to notice from my end.
whether or not this looks the same as gall or ajeet, is up to lag and sync issues with VCMP. I've seen every one of you guys slide and shoot, and I see it much more from certain "laggers" ...use of certain techniques as I have said time and again will cause animation glitches, sliding or warp.
my conclusions here:
first,
3rd world lag, inclined to cause small amounts of de-sync which "fix" themselves in 2 ways, warp, or hi-speed animation "catch-up" where the player moves or slides to quickly adjust to their new XYZ which was lost in time.
combine the lag with a technique making use of fast combinations of moves which change animations within the aforementioned lag time, which results in even more de-sync animation issues.
this technique plays a few animations much faster than the game sync is capable, due VCMP's restrictions along with the internet's, manifests itself in inconsistent and glitchy ways...
second,
everyone just jumping to a conclusion without any sort of testing or very much thought, let alone any proof... total witch-hunt.
third,
whoever said they got mods from gall, dumbass :P
fourth,
I'll wait for someone to prove to me that making a mod nobody can seem to make or duplicate, or even prove is possible in VCMP beyond speculation, would simpler or more practical for ajeet, amenine, hall, and prontera to do, than to do a glitch/technique me and sephiroth cracked in 20 minutes.
I swear i wasn't listening to some music there that sounds like me thumping my head repeatedly off my desk while a dying cat is used as bagpipes.
oh, you mean squida's music? :-X
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I agree strongly with your first point head that makes alot of sense. Though as this is all speculation I guess I will never make my mind up. It's just my whole past with thinking GaLL has mods then HaLL saying GaLL sent him mods in the first place I don't know why he would say that. I quite enjoy this topic at the same time with all the speculation beyond the techincal side towards vc-mp it was interesting. I think there's enough different views from people to decide on what to do. It might just be possible then that the others were using a technique was caused desync. Though like I said HaLL saying GaLL sent him a mod was just a brick wall for me to believe anything else. As for GaLL though that doesn't mean I still don't think he doesn't mod. Please someone make a decision and kill the topic once and for all! :'(
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yeah, its funny, we've been through a shitload of info, and there's still no way to say he isn't modding beyond speculation :(
a good learning experience though, and I'm very glad to see there are other technical-minded players out there, outside of ULK :D
I used to believe 100% that gall was modding, and believed it for many months up until recently, and was basically waiting around for the day that he would pass this mod along, and the people he passed it to would let it slip, then give it out to everyone and blow it all up.
ajeet and hall, if you did in fact recieve a modification from gall, I implore you both to go public with it and just take the shit you get, take the kick from the ladder, and accept that you had a very important role in the continuance of VCMP as a fun and fair game for all the players involved. :P
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ajeet saying certain mods are not possible is a totally invalid arguement. as admin on XE, I have seen the full gamut of mods, including and not limited to weapon.dat damage mods, as well as animation/speed cheats allowing players to run/slide at several different speeds, sometimes while firing a spas or minigun.
there is a difference between hacks and mods.. i said except some texture mods.. mods do work in vcmp but speed/run slide and animation skip all is in only one hack tool i have used that tool lot a time when i used to be a hacker contact me personally for the details .... its a hack too not the mod.. mod is when u modify your game... i tried editing some mods in vcmp but it always display checksum_fail on connecting the server... so hack tools are different and mods are different... dude i have some experience too...about modding coz i used to edit games earlier..
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well I showed the technique to charley, and after watching him do it, I am pretty sure gall is not modding. I am also 100% sure that I have found most of prontera's move-sets, and I am very close to discovering what is behind aeo's "stumbling" style...
anyway, I watched charley go from a knockdown every 10 shots to knocking me every 2 shots, jumping ahead of his shot origins, "fire and forget"
I also saw him sliding around alot while we were crouch glitching.
here is the final "gallshot" style:
sprint while holding sprint weapon, hold down the fire button. while holding fire, switch to stubby/shotgun. holding fire causes you to stop and fire "fast-draw" ...after the shot animation begins, and before the shot fires, switch to sprint weapon. the switch will not work right, due to shot animation locking. you jump and it will "force" the switch. do the timing correctly, and this will do a shotgun blast with pistol sound a bit earlier than before, as well as sync the shot behind your jump. do the timing incorrectly, and you are stuck in a "normal" timed shot animation. at this point, a player can use a crouch and switch glitch to "break" out of the slow/normal shot animation the bad timing sticks you in. how would someone hide that they just crouch+switch and run glitched in a fight to save a bad move? maybe they would jump after one step ;)
hmmm case solved? *waits for charley*
still, I am left trying to prove a negative (that gall did not use mods at a certain point in time) which is pretty much impossible. also, whether or not this move-set makes use of illegal glitching, is totally up to you guys to decide...
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ajeet saying certain mods are not possible is a totally invalid arguement. as admin on XE, I have seen the full gamut of mods, including and not limited to weapon.dat damage mods, as well as animation/speed cheats allowing players to run/slide at several different speeds, sometimes while firing a spas or minigun.
there is a difference between hacks and mods.. i said except some texture mods.. mods do work in vcmp but speed/run slide and animation skip all is in only one hack tool i have used that tool lot a time when i used to be a hacker contact me personally for the details .... its a hack too not the mod.. mod is when u modify your game... i tried editing some mods in vcmp but it always display checksum_fail on connecting the server... so hack tools are different and mods are different... dude i have some experience too...about modding coz i used to edit games earlier..
Thats why those guys use hacked clients which doesnt use the md5 checksum of the weapon.dat and other files :)
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hey can we get all the ladder staff to verify this technique (charley can show ya I believe) and do some sort of ruling as to how it pertains to the VU ladder? (how it pertains to gall/amenine/ajeet/aeo kick from the ladder would also be a good thing to talk about)
I plan on using this style in my next match, figuring I'm not using mods and as long as I'm not ghosting my shots or using crouch glitches to break out from fuckups, I'm not glitching any worse than someone jumping to break an animation, or shooting a shotgun with pistol sound (something popular with "experienced" and "pro's" which I take it the VU ladder is catering to).... and without any sort of clear-cut definition or ruling on this, I'll do what I do...
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I plan on using this style in my next match,
So be easy on me :D
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heheh don't worry I still suck with it, 5 minutes and charley was pwning me left and right...
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So i figure out 3 possible decisions.
1. Create a rule like: "Glitching for unfair advantage is forbidden". We make sure to clear it up with players, so they know exactly whats meant by 'unfair advantage'.....probably create a list of glitches forbidden/allowed.
2. Give the glitchers a status of "noob glitchers", embarress them, make glitching similar to using spaz noob.
So they auto. give up.
3. Allow all glitches(call them l33t techniques). The one who can glitch best or has most knowledge/experience in vcmp is obviously the best player. The rest of people got their whole lives to learn those glitches.
PS:
Since a long time, we have a relegion to fight with honour.
This relegion is orthodoxly followed by most of us.
Thats the reason why we use stubby instead of spaz.....We dont interrupt 1v1s...... We dont backstab (mind the exceptions ;) )
Even though all these are approved by rules, We always keep our honour.
Rules? are just excuses to kick and ban.
What is the guarantee, that there does not exist more glitches which are untraceable.
This one perticularly was being used by GaLL since a long time.....there could be more being used by someone else.
We create rules and ban some glitches?
It is taking a lot of effort and time to reckon this glitches.
There will always remain players using glitches for unfair advantages......hunt em all out dot com? that link is not helpful.
But as HeaD said about MTAVC history. I think the VC-MP is going the same way.
So, the next thing we might see in future is declining activity (already getting the feel). Then the devs killing it by shutting the master server. Their always exist bigger projects like SAMP and now GTA4 too.
As someone said "History repeats itself".
So, ill go with possibility #3.
because imo, we need to take a different turn now, or we go all the same way.
We have the LWs and XEs rules embedded in our minds. both forbades glitching.
It will be harder to accept this, but i dont see any flaw in this once it is fully accepted by one and all.
....pls think about any other possibility, i might have missed. :)
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So i figure out 3 possible decisions.
1. Create a rule like: "Glitching for unfair advantage is forbidden". We make sure to clear it up with players, so they know exactly whats meant by 'unfair advantage'.....probably create a list of glitches forbidden/allowed.
2. Give the glitchers a status of "noob glitchers", embarress them, make glitching similar to using spaz noob.
So they auto. give up.
3. Allow all glitches(call them l33t techniques). The one who can glitch best or has most knowledge/experience in vcmp is obviously the best player. The rest of people got their whole lives to learn those glitches.
alright so staff/referees need to vote on this?
if so, i go with 1., and don't consider simple jumping a glitch
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PS:
So, ill go with possibility #3.
because imo, we need to take a different turn now, or we go all the same way.
We have the LWs and XEs rules embedded in our minds. both forbades glitching.
It will be harder to accept this, but i dont see any flaw in this once it is fully accepted by one and all.
It is really hard to accept glitching I think. Its part of game but i don't think it's fair to allow it.
I will think about 1st and 2nd option.
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I'd say 1, its not too hard, takes a while to define it all, but using a boiled down method like the SP functionality works if youre lazy :P
I'll also suggest another one.
#4. allow players in each match to determine and agree upon their legal and allowed glitches/techniques and maybe weapons too. while this removes some consistency from the ladder, and adds the possibility for players to say things like "pfff you beat him using shotgun only, I beat him using 'anything goes' so I'm better." this will make it so you do not have to take the time to define every single glitch, or let the "honor system" stagnate the game. also distances you guys from having to make a list of "pet glitches" for the ladder and make the ladder more acceptable all-around.
I've been thinking of #3 as well, mainly in regards to the XE rule-set.
every day, I witness players using glitches, and the rule is just too hard to explain and communicate to enforce properly. quite frankly, glitching knowledge spreads faster and easier than rules and honor.
humans by nature are wired for "survival of the fittest"
the internet is a place where people act out their internalized processes more freely, being assholes, racist, flaming, whatever...
I am starting to think the game may grow more if we work with glitching in a way that is not prohibitive to the players and their human nature to survive by whatever means.
basically, if I ever become convinced that players teaching eachother glitches and nubs facing harder odds or a harder learning curve results in less players quitting forever than "lame admin" or ladder/competition kicks/bans for glitches, I'm going to make glitching 100% legal on XE, and push for the same on all ULK servers. let the chips fall where they may...
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now, back to the topic, I played with the technique for nearly 4 hours yesterday. here's my new report:
you basically run while holding fire (holding fire while sprinting doesn't do anything actually, it only makes the switching easier), roll the mousewheel to stubby and let go of sprint key only, while still holding a directional key... this will start the shot animation. immediately scroll back to the sprint weapon of your choice. you can do it as fast as you can as long as the shot animation starts, you can literally roll up to stub and back down consecutively, and forget about the scroll wheel from this point on. after completing the scrolls, re-press and hold your sprint key. from here, just watch the shot animation until the shot is right about to fire, and jump right before, right as, or even right after it fires. as soon as you jump, you instantly switch.
compared to normal jumps, the switch happens much faster.
alternatively, you can crouch right as/before/after the shot fires, like the crouch+switch+run, only instead of running, jump. the crouch seems to fix some of the aim issues you had mentioned, and make the shot fire even faster. some witnesses claimed to see sliding animations. others claimed to see a huge speed increase. laggers claimed to see me not shooting and breaking shots, and in general, all laggers(mainly DU tyrant) totally dominated me while using this style.
also, close range stubby users seemed very hard to hit using this, due to the aiming issues you had mentioned. any turret/sweep shots fire very early along the path you move the aim reticle. without almost instant "snap-to" aim skills, shooting someone up close with minimal spread and off-timing is fucking HARD. seriously.
generally, this style works best at range, has a great advantage at jump-back styles... and has a HUGE advantage firing sprint weapon consecutive to shotgun, for out-of-shotgun range jump-back attacks and finishes.
basically what I am saying is, I am 100% sure this is prontera's style for shotgun+python... I even have some old logs someplace of him telling me "I switch BEFORE the shot" while we were discussing the similar shotgun with python sound...
this style can also be gall's, it can accomplish all the things he does, albeit with some difficulty, and being seemingly useless in some situations. that said, there is not one single style in the game a person can depend on solely to beat other players to the point of being questionably called a modder, with little to no proof. I imagine gall uses this style on the fly, and dynamically with other styles to compensate for its weaknesses. under the same idea that one single style cannot allow for such domination to occur, one minor mod to anims/switching to allow an mta-style switch would not allow such an effect either.
in any case, I can never prove gall did NOT mod. proving a negative is next to impossible. the closest we can get to settling this, is whether or not someone can duplicate this modification, and then get in game and do everything gall does effortlessly.
until someone can duplicate this mod, all the situational evidence leaves me only to believe that gall uses technique, not mods... being that there is something concrete to that arguement, while the accusations are all speculation at this point. that said, I still believe these effects could be accomplished through modifications, I'd like to see that done so I can tell myself "LOL I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG!!!" and feel better about all the times gall smoked on me in VC