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stormeus

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Playing VC:MP the wrong way
« on: July 05, 2015, 07:54:06 am »
This is a rant that you probably don't care about so don't complain about it later.

Recommended reading that's probably better than this crap:
http://rjbs.manxome.org/rubric/entry/2083



So as a developer, I don't really have the chance to actually play VC:MP; for every 10 hours I put into it, I probably get one hour of play time (which does not include me joining servers to test fixes or new features). Even then, if I join on my regular nick, there's probably a 99% chance someone is going to ask me a tech support question about not being able to reach the masterlist, report some random bug, or ask me to add peds.

I started getting back into VC:MP by using alternate nicknames so this doesn't happen when I want to play a quick DM session. However, I also suck, and I mean I really suck. I play on a trackpad so my tracking is atrocious if I try to shoot at long ranges, and I can't lead-aim for my life so I tend to get destroyed in stubby duels. This is unfortunate because the "official" pro player loadout seems to be a stubby, an M4, a TEC-9 and a laser rifle, and no matter how much I practice, I don't get much better.

That said, while on my alt a while ago, I decided to use the army skin on LW, the most stereotypical "noob" skin, second only to the Tommy skin. Not only that, but against VU's storied history as the "Anti-Roofing, Anti-Spazzing" clan, I flew over to Downtown, landed across the street from the police spawn, and roofed like hell. I got most of my kills by waiting for people to be knocked down by shotguns and then stealing other people's kills.

I got a few people complaining about how much of an idiot I must be for not using the sacred shotgun and having a "real" fight. I thought that I'd probably be upset too if I kept getting killed by someone roofing with an M60, but then I realized — who gives a shit?

Probably the most annoying part about VC:MP to me is the insistence on being "honorable" even though literally nobody follows this. Getting killed while typing a sin of the highest order and using the Spaz is so low effort that you might as well kill yourself. Still, that round is probably the most fun I'd had playing VC:MP in a long while because it was something that I was comfortable with.

People tend to get all pissy about not having a "real" fight, but now I'm pretty sure that VC:MP would be way too boring without having people playing with different strategies. The sense of urgency from fighting a 6v1 or having to deal with a roofer, a carkiller, and a guy with a shotgun all at once is actually pretty fun once you ignore the idea of some guy playing the wrong way by using their car. It's petty, and you don't get paid based on your K/D ratio anyway.

(Which isn't to say there aren't bad ways of playing VC:MP. Map mods, hacks, and playing with an unplayable low FPS or high ping is ridiculous, no one wants to see you warping your way across the map.)

If people want to play competitively and only have to deal with people using the M4 and a stubby, that's their choice, and they're free to find a server that respects that. However, spewing garbage about how there are only three real weapons in the game and everything else is BS that should be banned is some bullshit in itself.

If you're the type of person who does this, stop. You're basically telling people that their way of having fun is wrong and that fun is only allowed the way you do it. No one enjoys it and you're probably pissing yourself off over nothing. Pick something that's comfortable with you, switch it up if you want. Just stop crying every time a guy with a spaz drives by on top of a car and find a way to defend yourself against that instead. Maybe you'll actually enjoy yourself then.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 08:11:14 am by stormeus »
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<krystianoo> stormeus do good job
<krystianoo> with recent update
<krystianoo> if not agree; jeb yourself in head
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<karan> he called him fake prophet too
<krystianoo> sure fake prophet
<krystianoo> but with recent updates real

Charley

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Re: Playing VC:MP the wrong way
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2015, 03:00:39 pm »
I completely, 100% agree.

I'll match your rant with one of my own, and a little story.

So when I joined VC:MP the only playable server was LWs. Back then, the fervor with which people supported the use of one single weapon (the stubby, not even the shotgun too) was extreme. I quickly became part of that server's culture, and I adopted the view held by 99% of the regular 'high-profile' players that stubby fighting was the hallmark of a good VC:MP player, and that disturbing it was the hallmark of douchebaggery. It was partly out of this that the 'Anti-roofing anti-spazzing clan' idea grew. But it also grew, in a significant way, because I thought that it would be a successful way of recruiting skilled people (I tried and failed to launch clans three times prior to ArS, under the names 'The Armed Bastards', 'Vice Family', and one other that I can't remember). And successful, it was.

The VC:MP community was actually tiny at this time as the masterlist had gone down for about 4 months solid in mid-2008, and then was on-and-off for another 6 months or so. We would make forum threads celebrating the few occasions that VC:MP had a global playercount of 30. Despite this, the ArS concept proved successful in recruiting some of the very few new players, so the concept worked out, but it wasn't long before it was doomed. To an extent we were trying to emulate the good clans of the time - KFJ, DnA - whose modus operandi was to form, by invitation only, an elite. They didn't have training ranks, they didn't allow clan applications. In a community whose membercount you could measure on a child's abacus, it is now obvious in hindsight that this strategy couldn't work, and sure enough, it didn't.

After just a few months I decided that actually the elitist attitude of the LW regulars and the dominant clans of the time was counter-intuitive. It was arrogant, and it in fact stifled the growth of the community. It was then that, after chatting with Knucis and aXXo a little, I decided to open VU, a clan that instead of trying to entice good players, would create good players. At that stage we allowed virtually anyone to join as a trainee, and if, after an effort to train them, they remained unsuitable, we'd kick them. We gained a bad reputation, as a clan that had dropped all its standards, but soon some of the trainees shone through, and it wasn't long before we had the likes of TheKing, J.Ripper, GangstaRas, AEG, and Kontrium kicking ass all over the mod. Having said this, we still remained a fairly stubby-centric clan, and our training would be mostly angled in that direction.

It was around then that I met ULK.HeAD, and we started talking about XE. During the latter half of 2007 and early 2008, XE had been a hell-zone, whose only administrators were either inactive or completely tyrannical (there was one fundamentalist Christian admin, whose name I forget, who would often make decisions based on what he thought was right by his religion). HeAD, however, had convinced Tommis to hand over the administration keys to ULK, a gang that consisted then of a very small number of old MTA guys (HeAD, Bishop, Prontera and then later hazz - maybe Gulk too, but I don't remember seeing him that often), and of a bunch of players who had been banned from LW (including akiharu, who got banned when he was using the name 'Sophie', back in the days when he pretended he was a girl). Their philosophy was completely different to the LW crowd. Perhaps driven by the patchy sync in MTA, their attitude towards fighting was 'bring as much as you can, and kill your opponent no matter what'.

HeAD was very smart, so to build a server culture that had this ideal at its heart, he opened power over its administration to almost anyone, provided he or someone he trusted had vetted them a little, and we had our first true community server. ULK still very much had ultimate control, but (except for Bishop) they made a lot of effort to make everyone think that this wasn't the case, and that everyone had power in the server. And they did, to an extent, but the final word lay with ULK. XE grew, and then it declined a little. It was at this point that HeAD and I had a series of long emails and irc conversations about how to try and shape the VC:MP community.

The email exchanges probably totalled about 20,000 words, and in them we discussed how VU and ULK operate, how XE should run, what community events should look like, and what Sharks vs Marios (an idea I had only just come up with) should look like, and how it might be able to grow the community. We were not doing this for altruistic reasons. We were, to paraphrase HeAD, making the game we loved to play better, so that we could enjoy it more, and making sure there were other people around to play it with us.

TL;DR

To cut a long story short, we came to the following conclusion:

VC:MP has to have player freedom at its heart.

XE, VU, SvM and ULK were modeled or remodeled around this ethos (the latter unsuccessfully, because of a few dinosaurs among its ranks). Players ought to be able to play this mod exactly how they want it, and they should have the opportunity to access every single part of it. This means not forming an elite culture. We must make servers and clans - the backbones of the community - welcoming to all newcomers. Applications to join clans, and server and events administration teams, should always be open. All weapons in large TDM servers, except for those that are completely overpowering (the minigun is the only one HeAD and I could think of) should be free and accessible to all players, as all of them can be countered. The XE that we made with this in mind was a crazy warzone, the epicentre of which would change all the time, and that had newbies teaming up against vets and completely wiping the floor with them. It turned things on their head; though I must admit, things got a little unfair when c-glitching became commonplace.

Sadly XE and ULK failed because of internal politics that were a direct result of people not following this ethos. VU still remains strongly attached to it, however, which is why there are people like Stormeus and Thijn, who can and do barely hold stubbys, senior in our ranks.

It seems like the dominant server of today, LW, has gone back, to an extent, to its old ways. Maybe it's taking the VC:MP community with it. It doesn't feel like a welcoming place, it feels like one that is accessible to only those 'in the know'. Not just in gameplay, but in its whole culture. You only have to look at their forum to see how much of a 'community' server it is. It's almost entirely functional, with very few posts made outside what is absolutely necessary to post. It's a place for the exchange of information between those who have power over the server, and those who don't, and that's all it is. If you went and looked at the old XE forum (I don't even know if it still exists), you'd find hundreds of posts a day; fights, ideas, suggestions, admin applications. XE grew with the community, and the community grew with it, and it was all underpinned by a simple faith in letting each other play exactly how we'd like to play.

I'm not badmouthing the administration of LW as people, as most of them I would consider to be friends, but I think the way that the server is run is not conducive to the forming of an inclusive, competitive, fun VC:MP community.

I guess my message to you, Stormeus, is this: it wasn't always like this, and what happened with our XE experiment proves that it doesn't have to be.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 03:07:08 pm by Charley »
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NewK

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Re: Playing VC:MP the wrong way
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2015, 12:24:16 am »
Hey, if we're ranting about vcmp I want in!  :P

I agree with alot of the stuff you guys said and disagree with some, hopefully this post won't sound like a hostile reply as I've been told my posts sometime leave that impression.

I believe it all comes down to different playstyles and that's all there is to it. I don't believe there's one true playstyle that everyone should abide to (ex: 1v1 stubby duels), that would be extremely boring. Roofers, spazzers, m4 users, etc.. are a part of the game. I can't imagine fighting in downtown LW with no roofers and no spazzers, that would not be lw at all, sure roofers are pretty annoying but it's part of the game, and I like that I have my own ways to kill them. The concept of "roofing" brought a whole new world of experiences to vcmp, especially on LW. Suddenly, there was roofing specific clans like [ROOFER] and then there was anti-roofing clans, and then there was even people who would go and patrol the roofs of downtown by themselves just to prevent roofers from landing, I don't know if this still happens nowadays but back in the day I saw this happen alot. It was the best when you could just go up there and single-handedly kill a team of 4 roofers who just arrived on a couple of skimmers from ocean beach because they didn't have a shotgun or were just not that profficient with it. Lots of times it also happened that you'd go up there expecting to kill them all and get completely wiped by a well coordinated team of roofers, and then you'd re-spawn with the thirst. You know, the thirst of revenge and that sense that it's now your duty to kill them, you MUST kill them, it became your main goal to bring them down and you cannot rest until you bring justice back to the streets of downtown.

And that was the LW experience, one of many. You didn't get that anywhere else, you could try XE but it was just not the same, XE was so disperse, there were fights everywhere, it was a clusterfuck of explosions, drive-bying , c-glitching, wallglitching, ghost world glitching, etc.. and that's fine, it was just not my cup of tea. It was a different culture but it was by no means, the "right" one and nor is LW's 1v1 stubby duel culture. It's like you said, there's no right or wrong way to play the game. Sorry if I sound like pretentious douchebag but I found LW's culture and gameplay to be alot more refined than XE, and alot more balanced aswell. There was no !goto, !wep, !gotoloc commands on LW, you wanted a weapon, you go to ammunation and buy it, need to take out a roofer? Get into an heli and go up there yourself, there's no !gotoloc to use. In my opinion XE has always lacked those restrictions, there was no concept of "balance" in XE. Pretty much everything was allowed. I think a vital part of every online game is balance. The game should be balanced to be enjoyed. Every other online game with constant updates does this, it's only natural there will be overpowered stuff and underpowered stuff and that's where balancing will come in. For instance, c-glitch. Allowed on XE, not allowed on LW. Where the c-glitching era was alot of fun, it made the game terribly hard for newcomers. VC:MP already had a low player count given that it's an old game, it didn't need anymore reasons to lower the player count. When a newcomer tried vcmp at first, when he saw people c-glitching he would either: Leave vcmp assuming everyone was cheating, or, become a cheater himself because according to his logic, everyone else was doing it right?

In this sense LW was a little bit more noob-friendly than XE, which is fine by me because vcmp desperately needed more players, and to be honest, it just makes sense. I mean just think about it, a glitch is glitch. It's a fault, a defect  in the game, should we really encourage players to use it just for sake of saying we know how to c-glitch? VC:MP had become a competition of whoever knew the most obscure glitches and loopholes. And people would be proud of themselves because they knew how to do this one glitch that no one else knew about that gave them advatange over other players. Overall, vcmp suffered the most from this kind of thinking. To me, those were the truly elitist atittudes that ruined this mod. And I'm not saying the players are at fault for glitching, it's not their fault. They glitched because they were allowed to. I believe that if most servers disallowed c-glitching at the time, it would have been a step closer to maintaining a higher and consistent playerbase. Just imagine how hard it was for a newcomer to get into vcmp and actually stay in the community for a long time with all the glitches and loopholes. The player count stagnated beause of that and we can see the proof of it today, I can take a look at IRC right now and I can see that I know like 90% of the users in the most channels. And don't get me wrong, I like that, I mean, it's good that people decided to stay all these years and even the ones that don't play anymore are still on IRC, this is good thing and I've made some good friends over the years in this mod, but my point is: there's barely any new players, it's mostly the same people (Although with 0.4 now, playercount has been rising!)

I also don't think it's fair to assume that if a weapon can be countered, it can be automatically ruled out as overpowered, because there's a counter to everything. Take aimbots in FPS games for instance, can aimbots be countered? Sure, just stay behind a wall or kill the aimbotter when he's not looking. It's still overpowered. Now take the seasparrow in vcmp, same thing exactly, that thing is literally aimbot, no, it's actually better, it has high mobility aswell, but can you counter it? Yeah just stay behind a wall or shoot it down when it's not looking (if the weapon you have can actually reach it, good luck with that). LW didn't have restrictions on the weapons but there was no !wep command and everyone knew which weapons were overpowered, like the spaz, m60, etc... In LW it's like there's this unspoken rule of honor where most people just choose the stubby and have 1v1 duels, and "crucify" me all you want but to be honest I really like this. I'm not saying everyone should play like this but I really that this is a thing in LW. There's no such thing like this in other online games, it's like there's this "code of vcmp ethics" that everyone follows and this is a really rare thing to find in other games. This is my idea of fun in vcmp, I like to test myself against other players, and capture their habits when fighting and counter them, just like they counter my habits and my way of fighting, I find it to be really fun to know how each player fights and come up with a way to counter them. For example, knowing that player A has an habit of doing B so in order beat them I have to do C, etc.... It's small things like that that make vcmp fun for me and why I could never use a different playstyle. But yea it's like you said, the idea of "fun" in vcmp differs from player to player, and thank god because it would be really boring if everyone played the same way.

Nonetheless there's still things that I've disliked in LW and liked in XE. For example the no heli kill rule in LW always made no sense to me since it was a direct counter to roofers. Roofers shouldn't be shielded from the danger that is getting wiped by a heli blade. They stay up there, where they are nice and safe and kill whoever they want  with almost no risks at all. With heli-killing it becames a high risk/reward situation. Which is the way I think it should be. With XE, there was always one thing that I liked about it that no other server had. The team command where you could team up with someone and they would re-spawn near you when they died. This was genius and most likely one of the main reasons why the server was popular for such a long time, because people would come in with their friends, team up and stay for hours. The server encouraged teamplay. In my opinion this was the big difference between XE and LW. While you could team up on LW too, XE's battleground was more team oriented and with this feature it became easier to team up. Just like if you wanted 1v1 stubby duels, LW's battleground was more suitable for this than XE's. I'm not saying LW's way of doing things was better or that XE's way was better, it was just different. It was a matter of tastes, different strokes for different folks. Not everyone plays with a group all the time and not everyone is in a clan, and even if they're in a clan, sometimes they just want to play by themselves or their team mates are just not online. XE's gamemode was not very kind to these types of players, since everyone else there would be !teamed up, it was easy to just target a solo player and destroy him with a couple of friends. Just like there were players that were the opposite of this and never played alone, so you would never see them playing on LW and having 1v1 fights.



Sorry, I may have digressed a little as I tried to reply to both posts  ^-^
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 12:29:17 am by NewK »
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Angela

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Re: Playing VC:MP the wrong way
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2015, 02:28:15 am »
Often,when I play in LW with a low Fps(10>60 ftw) I take the pink skin which has *M60,MP5,Spaz*, I take my heli and I go to Vice Point ammu and I buy a laser sniper, I go to roof of the place which has many players, I turn my stats on, and I start to sniping the heads (bad chica), as noob I do this strategie, And I get a good stats, and a pro ratio.

When a VU(R/T) joins the server I join his team, which has stubby (VU pro) and then I turn my stats off because I knew that I'll get killed by the people who uses the strategie which I used before, but no way my ratio becames bad in elo's site.

Never mind all this, the most thing I use for a good Ratio is I take a random shotgun and I go to the newbies who stills fight with Colt45 and get spree on them.

Is this how I personally play VC:MP, some people says that I take the game so serious, and I don't want this but I think I do, I need accept my errors as Fercho says.   ;)
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Re: Playing VC:MP the wrong way
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2015, 04:28:41 am »
...
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 12:37:35 pm by Orochi »
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Re: Playing VC:MP the wrong way
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2015, 05:41:51 pm »
I want to share my feeling about this as an old player

At the time I joined VCMP , the ones so called "elites" used to do 1v1 and there were a respect for that in both XE and LWs.Nobody would interrupt these fights.If players wanted another way of playing,they did that with the rest who doesnt feel comfortable with it or newbies.

With the leaving of the guys who kept this respect,another community grew and they totally screwed up the fun on servers.Everyone learnt glitches.While it was cool to know fast switching with weapons and only a few people knew it,this became common .The ones who only knows basic cheats became admins.Reporting admins was something people would hesitate.

Things got worse day by day.

There were events which managed by the people who had great responsibility for their duties.Today its almost impossible to make a clan war

The respect has gone.Thats the point why you're wrong.When you do 1v1 and people starts to interrupt, its frustrating.

The point you're right about is that the others who you Dont call "elites"  shouldnt be insulted as you mentioned above.
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Re: Playing VC:MP the wrong way
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2015, 06:41:14 pm »
Contact the right clan when you want to make a clanwar and you'll surely get one.
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Re: Playing VC:MP the wrong way
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2015, 07:38:25 pm »
1vs1 fight is no more alive anymore, i remember how people used to fight each other with stubby now only thing player can do is use m4.
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Re: Playing VC:MP the wrong way
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2015, 05:53:37 am »
Looks like I'm not missing out on a lot. If the respect is gone, why would you play anymore? I might pop ingame this weekend just to see how things go nowadays..
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Re: Playing VC:MP the wrong way
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2015, 03:46:26 pm »
Looks like I'm not missing out on a lot. If the respect is gone, why would you play anymore? I might pop ingame this weekend just to see how things go nowadays..
LWs on weekends:

There are 2 teams -
Russian team,
Anti-Russian team.

There is a huge war, then everyone either rage quits or joins the Russian team.
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Re: Playing VC:MP the wrong way
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2015, 01:44:05 pm »
I just don't find VC:MP to be as fun as it was back in the day. Nowadays, the way I 'play VC:MP' is just when I am testing some scripts.
Like Thijn said, maybe I'll just try and play on a random server to see how things go, if it really is that bad as you guys say.
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Re: Playing VC:MP the wrong way
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2015, 08:12:12 pm »
I just don't find VC:MP to be as fun as it was back in the day. Nowadays, the way I 'play VC:MP' is just when I am testing some scripts.
Like Thijn said, maybe I'll just try and play on a random server to see how things go, if it really is that bad as you guys say.
It is not bad. Eh?
Might call this the best era VCMP has ever been in.

Only thing that lacks is a decent player base spread across a variety of servers.
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Re: Playing VC:MP the wrong way
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2015, 08:20:40 pm »
I just don't find VC:MP to be as fun as it was back in the day. Nowadays, the way I 'play VC:MP' is just when I am testing some scripts.
Like Thijn said, maybe I'll just try and play on a random server to see how things go, if it really is that bad as you guys say.
It is not bad. Eh?
Might call this the best era VCMP has ever been in.

Only thing that lacks is a decent player base spread across a variety of servers.

Just had time to play a bit. Was fun at times, but most of the time you get spammed at with an m4 to the head and see m60 bullets flying everywhere from rooftops.
I do feel like there's certain players that like the old killing eachother a few versus a few. Just like it used to be. But then that other teammate comes around the corner guns blazing...
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Re: Playing VC:MP the wrong way
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2015, 11:22:04 pm »
Just had time to play a bit. Was fun at times, but most of the time you get spammed at with an m4 to the head and see m60 bullets flying everywhere from rooftops.
I do feel like there's certain players that like the old killing eachother a few versus a few. Just like it used to be. But then that other teammate comes around the corner guns blazing...

You went ingame? Good crap and I missed it lol. That would've been the million dollar picture of the year right there  :laugh:
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WiLsOn

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Re: Playing VC:MP the wrong way
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2015, 01:40:35 pm »
I just don't find VC:MP to be as fun as it was back in the day. Nowadays, the way I 'play VC:MP' is just when I am testing some scripts.
Like Thijn said, maybe I'll just try and play on a random server to see how things go, if it really is that bad as you guys say.
It is not bad. Eh?
Might call this the best era VCMP has ever been in.

Only thing that lacks is a decent player base spread across a variety of servers.

Just had time to play a bit. Was fun at times, but most of the time you get spammed at with an m4 to the head and see m60 bullets flying everywhere from rooftops.
I do feel like there's certain players that like the old killing eachother a few versus a few. Just like it used to be. But then that other teammate comes around the corner guns blazing...
You went in game? You broke my heart bro really.


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