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Author Topic: Winner forecast  (Read 5675 times)

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NewK

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Re: Winner forecast
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2015, 09:07:44 pm »
0.4 does not register shots as soon as they leave the barrel. Shots are registered as soon as you press your fire key. In a perfect world, this would mean that players with higher pings would just see your shots later.

However, if packets are received out of order, as they usually are at higher and higher pings, then players may not see your shots appeared because the "not firing" packet arrived too early (desync). Or, they could see you shooting when your bullets haven't left the barrel because their "not firing" packet arrived too late (ghosting).
Hmm, I see. I was wrong on my last post then, thanks clearing that up.
However, I would also imagine that jumping RakNet versions and rewriting the entire core would result in some changes in how these situations end up affecting gameplay.
Hmm, yea this makes sense, however I wouldn't be suprised if the fl off was causing some issues. It wouldn't be the first time higher fps' cause issues in online games (cod being an example of that). In VC:MP we already know that it doesn't exactly make a player faster, but in some situations, there's some differences between a player with the fl on and a player with the fl off. An example which you probably already know about is when going "up" a rail, if you have fl off you'll gain alot more speed than if you had it on. An easy way to test this is by going to downtown's police building in the back, and jumping on the rail that's on the stairs to the helipad. When you jump on the rail if you keep pressing W repeatedly, you'll slide all the way up the stairs, but if you disable the fl and hit high enough fps, when you do this slide up the rail you'll gain so much speed that you'll end up on the upper roof of the police building. So I know for sure that having fl off causes some differences in gameplay, I just don't know yet, how much this matters in a battle.

For those that don't know what I'm talking about:

Frame limiter on, 30 fps
Frame limiter off, 60 fps
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 11:31:29 pm by NewK »
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stormeus

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Re: Winner forecast
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2015, 10:43:56 pm »
You make it sound like VC:MP has a HaveGlitchersAndLaggersWinFights function, and not that the "higher skilled "players haven't realized that the fire-and-forget shotgun switching style is unreliable now.
Lack of skills can be compensated by lags. You can't deny it.

My understanding from VCDC conversations is that lack of skills is compensated by lag when glitching. However I'm not going to fix anything when the community simultaneously complains:
  • That glitching is nerfed and lowers the skill ceiling. (Have you ever seen a server with fast switch disabled? Why not?)
  • That glitching leads to uneven gameplay.

This especially considering how it's virtually impossible to balance a game where players' pings are as high as ~500 on some servers.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 10:47:04 pm by stormeus »
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Angela

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Re: Winner forecast
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2015, 12:35:49 am »
Well, I can freely control my ping, I can make it low, or high easily, but I like to play with lowest one, but If I make it high I will win the VCDC?
some of you wonder about how I control it, right?
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Milko

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Re: Winner forecast
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2015, 06:11:18 am »
I can change my ping from 35ms to 160ms or 279ms. If I was a contestant, I'd choose the highest ping and win!  O0
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krystianoo

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Re: Winner forecast
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2015, 07:28:14 am »
solution? put laggers with laggers and low pingers with low pingers :police: lag compensation

and yeah, there's a lot of issues with 60 FPS on renderware engine if I'm thinking correctly, but I imagine this was the thing with most of the old games ;)
On 60FPS you can flip cars, die from falling down the sidewalk (:D), RW has issues calculating collisions or something like that.

Still - imagine lag compensation in VCMP... it'd be a race who hits who on his screen and runs around till the guy gets shot on his screen, lol
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Angela

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Re: Winner forecast
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2015, 09:17:29 am »
solution? put laggers with laggers and low pingers with low pingers :police: lag compensation
210W: GENIUS
« Last Edit: July 16, 2015, 09:29:10 am by Morphine »
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stormeus

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Re: Winner forecast
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2015, 06:05:01 pm »
solution? put laggers with laggers and low pingers with low pingers

This is how groups would've been arranged without random seeding — organization by timezone. The outcome was that multiple members of several clans would've been lumped into one group (of which only two would advance), eliminating more high-skill players early and having the second and third stages involve more laggers anyway.
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krystianoo

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Re: Winner forecast
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2015, 06:14:48 pm »
Two leagues:
The Laggy One and The Not So Laggy One.

TLO would naturally had laggers, and the other one would have low pingers.
The winner of TLO & the winner of TNSLO would fight against each other in the grand-grand finale for the first place prize.
The loser would get the second place prize, naturally.
The third place (both 2nd places of both leagues) would fight against each other for the 3rd spot prize.
Well, the who-gets-the-prize thing should get improved, but unless you improve the nolagvslag combat that's a good solution...
at least for me!
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stormeus

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Re: Winner forecast
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2015, 06:31:33 pm »
By splitting the tournament between laggers and non-laggers (which might as well be completely arbitrary), you have circumvented most of the point of this event: to bring the community together.

And asking me to fix the "lag vs. nolag combat" is like asking me to make internet packets go faster than the speed of light. There are physical constraints to internet gaming. Either you get inconsistent low ping fights or inconsistent high ping fights. You literally cannot have it both ways.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2015, 06:33:59 pm by stormeus »
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<krystianoo> if not agree; jeb yourself in head
<Avenger> yesterday you said death to stormeus
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<karan> he called him fake prophet too
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Thijn

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Re: Winner forecast
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2015, 05:53:33 am »
By splitting the tournament between laggers and non-laggers (which might as well be completely arbitrary), you have circumvented most of the point of this event: to bring the community together.

And asking me to fix the "lag vs. nolag combat" is like asking me to make internet packets go faster than the speed of light. There are physical constraints to internet gaming. Either you get inconsistent low ping fights or inconsistent high ping fights. You literally cannot have it both ways.
But internet packets don't go over light. They use magic. Don't they?
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NewK

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Re: Winner forecast
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2015, 01:14:24 pm »
By splitting the tournament between laggers and non-laggers (which might as well be completely arbitrary), you have circumvented most of the point of this event: to bring the community together.

And asking me to fix the "lag vs. nolag combat" is like asking me to make internet packets go faster than the speed of light. There are physical constraints to internet gaming. Either you get inconsistent low ping fights or inconsistent high ping fights. You literally cannot have it both ways.
I believe the key to these sync issues between laggers and low pingers is balance. 0.3's sync seemed to have this almost right. Not sure if was intentional or just a random fluke (more likely) given how many exploits it had, but it was nice. I guess we never gave it true value until now. Or maybe we just didn't notice that balance was there and assumed it was like that by default or something, I don't really know. But we can't have it both ways indeed. There is no "fix", or magic solution to this. If this is to be improved, I believe balancing is the way to do it. Making a few trades*here and there ,weighing the pros and cons about certain aspects of 0.4's structure and trying new things out. Technically, I wouldn't know what to do exactly since that area is completely out of my domain, so I can't be more specific, and I'm not implying that these sort of exercises haven't been done before either, I'm just asking not to give up on these issues. Because I don't think this is going to be a quick-fix or something that could be solved as easily. I believe this is one of those things that's going to be an ongoing effort to improve. This is also not an issue that will affect the average new VC:MP player as much, but in the long-run it might affect how long people will choose to stay in this community because the longer they stay, the more they'll start to notice these issues. The regular low ping vcmp players are probably the ones that are most affected, I for one, just lost a bit more interest in the competitive side of vcmp. I never found VC:MP to be a viable competitive game/mod because of all the lagg, and now it's even harder as the laggers became harder to hit.

The goal of all this discussion for me was to try to identify what was it exactly that 0.3 had that made the sync better for hitting laggers and why 0.4 can't replicate this. aXXo's theory made the most sense for me. Even though you've confirmed it that the shots are infact registered when the fire key is pressed in 0.4, is it not possible that 0.3 is being "faster" executing this than 0.4? This could result in 0.3 being faster to register the shots and explain why 0.4 feels delayed. It'd be interesting to benchmark this specific part of the code against 0.3's approach.


*What I meant by "trades" is something like: if we knew for sure that 0.4's ghost shot prevention technique (if there's actually such a thing) is causing this bigger delay against laggers, I would gladly trade it in exchange for a better sync against laggers. Wouldn't mind ghost shots at all, if the sync was better in those situations. Maybe it could even be made into a server-side setting or something like that.
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Moskvish

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Re: Winner forecast
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2015, 07:09:18 pm »
Tom , basically we are fucking too much far from the host ! and because of that we pakis are having such worst pings.

i had recently bought a new internet connection and i'm having a nice ping (~170).

If still you had any kinda problem from us so please just sit back have some pop corn and watch :)
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Kelvin

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Re: Winner forecast
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2015, 07:19:31 pm »
Tom , basically we are fucking too much far from the host ! and because of that we pakis are having such worst pings.

i had recently bought a new internet connection and i'm having a nice ping (~170).

If still you had any kinda problem from us so please just sit back have some pop corn and watch :)

Why dont you try Asia-Pacific Region?
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stormeus

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Re: Winner forecast
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2015, 07:54:59 pm »
Tom , basically we are fucking too much far from the host ! and because of that we pakis are having such worst pings.

i had recently bought a new internet connection and i'm having a nice ping (~170).

If still you had any kinda problem from us so please just sit back have some pop corn and watch :)

Why dont you try Asia-Pacific Region?

Because as it turns out, Pakistani internet is so bad, they have no proper route to the Asia-Pacific server. Whereas Indian players can get around 90 ping, Pakistanis somehow end up with worse pings than if they connect to Europe.

I don't mean this as an insult to Pakistan, just its internet.
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<krystianoo> with recent update
<krystianoo> if not agree; jeb yourself in head
<Avenger> yesterday you said death to stormeus
<karan> double standard krystianoo
<karan> he called him fake prophet too
<krystianoo> sure fake prophet
<krystianoo> but with recent updates real

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Re: Winner forecast
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2015, 11:10:58 pm »
Why all others paki don't get 150+ ping like me?
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