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Author Topic: 30 FPS vs 60 FPS  (Read 12710 times)

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stormeus

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30 FPS vs 60 FPS
« on: January 04, 2016, 09:40:52 am »
There is a reason 60 fps is an option and if you want to play the game the way Rockstar intended, go play singleplayer.

There's a reason Rockstar didn't add multiplayer to Vice City and if you want to play multiplayer GTA, go play GTA V. What is the point of this comment?

Quote
Nobody complained about desync due to framerates higher than 30 which is a fact; the minimum should be 25. How  do you want to operate kicks on minimum 30? Everyone gets FPS drops, and when you have 30 30 30 and a drop to 20 for a second (example), the average will drop to somewhere around 27.5 and bam, you get kicked.

Well here's the thing, there are obvious discrepancies in what's possible in the game between 30fps and 60fps, and anyone who claims otherwise is a moron. If you're making an event that's even remotely competitive, you generally want things to be as uniform as possible for as many people as possible, because having players with wildly varying configurations leads to a bunch of whining that players are doing something that seems impossible but is really because they don't have the same setup.

VC:MP already makes all players play on the obvious settings: gravity, game speed, weapon damage, fast/jump switch, etc. Map mods are something that could benefit from being able to be detected. Yet everyone causes a row over 30 vs 60fps because everyone prefers aesthetics over consistency.

Funnily enough, if you google "Vice City" and "60fps" together (or any 3D-gen GTA game), you'll find guides and threads complaining about the effects of having the frame limiter off:

http://www.speedrun.com/gtavc/guide/etur5
Quote
GTA is coded like shit, kinda like stuff on old systems. Instead of saying "Apply friction 30 times in a second" and monitoring the time it actually does things like "Apply friction every time code loops"...

 Side effects may include:
 - Too much friction 
    Reversing broken, impossible dodo takeoff, etc..
 - Softlocks
    Game code freezing and not progressing, usually happens after you die or take a mission
 +-Fucked up slopes/stairs
    You can literally fly away 100-200 meters away, and I mean launch from slopes/ledges 
    when running. Sometimes even dropping from a sidewalk to the road can take 50% of your health.
 - Boats are fucked up
    This goes back to too much friction.
 - Handbrake is fucked up
    Friction
 - Missions take forever to progress
    Related to softlocks
 - Audio is glitched
    Audio / Ped lines / etc.. get called after a specific amount of frames, too high fps
    and the sounds will play over each other and non-stop almost. 
    Imagine speeding up NPC horn-honking frequency and such by say.. 5 times.
 - Crazy flicker
    Things that go on/off say.. 2 times in a second (like wanted stars) will flicker like mad
    as they go on/off many times faster than usual.
 + Pushing cars
    You can literally flip cars over by running in to them as they don't get proper friction.
    For some reason they will be really light with a high framerate.
 - Broken AI / scripts
    Stuff like AI driven sections for small cut scenes can be totally off due to changed physics
    and coded "drive this path" scripts can be totally borken due to wrong frame/time references.
 + Helicopter takeoff
    A big plus is that helicopter takeoffs are nearly instant as the acceleration is tied to fps.

These are just some of the things that get changed, there are more side effects.
Therefore the GTA community has decided to ditch runs that run without the limiter.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1572946
Quote
It's what title says. Try it yourself. Go to settings and disable Frame Limiter (it makes game much smoother). However the game gets all funky after you do this. Cars don't reverse anymore or when you manage to reverse them, they do it really slowly. I mean slooooowly. And when you run and bump into your car you can bump it over or move it easily. Now enable Frame Limiter again and the cars will reverse normally now. Also bumping into them by running into them barely moves them now.


Quote
After my run had died I decided to break Vice City by turning off Frame Limiter. The results: catastrophic.

The result is that things get fucked for both sides. People playing at 30fps by having the laws of physics actually applied normally when driving, but people at 60fps can take off helicopters faster and slide up inclined surfaces at the speed of sound (at the cost of potential instability in the game's engine). Something not mentioned above is that players at 60fps (and more commonly at above 60) can take more damage from falling, and are more likely to take self-damage just by doing something as idiotically mundane as jumping from the street onto a sidewalk.

Which, again, is shit for a competitive event where everything should be as even as possible. Either you make the FPS threshold 60fps for everyone playing (and kill off more than half the player base) or you make the FPS threshold 30fps for everyone and maintain some sanity. The reason LW's management (who happen to be devs with far more intimate knowledge of the GTA engine than you do, mind you) cap framerates at 30 isn't because they hate smooth framerates; they're also pretty big gaming nerds. The reason is that the inconsistencies you introduce to VC:MP by having mixed 30/60/>60fps configurations is too much of a hassle. Having a comp event with mixed fps configs is fucking insane when you take all that into consideration.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 08:37:45 pm by aXXo »
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krystianoo

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Re: Improving Future Vice Wars
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2016, 01:23:35 pm »
Your guides and threads are about singleplayer VC in which the frame limiter option set to OFF makes the FPS to go to unlimited values, in VCMP it's 60. Which probably doesn't cause every single issue that you pasted down in your post.
So, maybe instead of posting things about singleplayer, can you educate me what sort of things are different in m u l t i p l a y e r?
What sort of advantage do 60 players have versus 30 ones? (in multiplayer bro)
"Sync issues" such as? Specify the details, please. One bullet not appearing?

Quote
There's a reason Rockstar didn't add multiplayer to Vice City and if you want to play multiplayer GTA, go play GTA V. What is the point of this comment?
Hm-hm-hm...
Quote
I've given a perfectly acceptable reason why this won't be re-enabled stop whining about it and play the game the way Rockstar intended.
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stormeus

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Re: Improving Future Vice Wars
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2016, 01:56:12 pm »
Doubling the framerate does invoke a lot of the issues I mentioned, actually. As far as how it affects MP, anything that affects SP affects MP.

I don't know why you're quoting AdTec to refute my point because frankly I don't give a flying fuck about how Rockstar did or did not intend for you to play. VC:MP is too extensive a modification for R*'s intentions to really matter. My intention as a dev is for people to have as consistent and accurate a playing experience as possible, and disabled framelimiters don't allow for that, so we leave it to server owners to decide on rules for enforcing it.

And let's be real, the client defaults to 60fps limit but people will form a meta around adjusting your framerate even higher than that.

Some things that might happen:

- You enforce frame limiter off on VC:MP servers instead of FL on, aggravating the effects of FPS warp because now people who can barely hold 30fps are warping 15-50 instead of 15-30 when people moan enough about laggers as it is.
- Cars being pushed by players will be subject to different physics depending on who's pushing it and if the car is occupied, causing more warps due to bad interp.
- Players at 60fps and up can use stair railing jumps to reach locations that might otherwise be impossible to reach.
- Players at 60+ can evade attackers more easily with air vehicles since takeoff time is MUCH lower at higher framerates.
- Players at reasonable framerates won't have to deal with choppier and more frictional waves on boats.
- Sounds playing or looping too quickly at higher framerates are annoying at best and deceptive at worst, potentially giving players a false impression of what's actually going on around them.
- Have fun taking random damage just from jumping around I guess?
- Players at 60fps will have a harder time shooting from on top of a moving vehicle. The game will more frequently see this as a collision and you'll die faster.

Bullet physics is basically irrelevant but VC:MP is more than bullet physics.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 01:58:16 pm by stormeus »
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krystianoo

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Re: Improving Future Vice Wars
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2016, 05:21:03 pm »
Surely you fell down because of the framerate and not because of your 300 ping compared to his 60. Haha.
If you would stop sharing 'propaganda' for a second and think, you'd realize this:

Quote
Even the bullets on 60fps are slightly faster (or maybe it is me who thinks that). If you remember the comparison of FPS by Stormeus in 0.3 on XE forum it was like the higher the FPS the faster the game.
                                                                                   haha no


Quote from: Stormeus
Running speed
As mentioned above, players who play at 60fps move at the same speed that players at 30fps move at. Just because there are more frames being drawn in a 1-second interval does not mean that the game itself is running faster. It simply makes your view look much smoother while moving.

@Stormeus
Quote
- Players at reasonable framerates won't have to deal with choppier and more frictional waves on boats.
I have no idea what this means. Boats at 60 FPS are way slower than they are on 30, which is a disadvantage for the 60 FPS players.
You put only 2 things that are an advantage, well, maybe 3 - the jump on railings thing is nearly useless, helicopter start up is a second or 2, but sure, it's an advantage even if a little one - it takes less than 1 or 2 seconds to destroy a helicopter with a stubby/m60 or to headshot the pilot. Whatever.
The rest is not an advantage for 60 FPS players, I assume since you're from USA you'll probably be familiar with the term 'volenti non fit iniuria' - if somebody wants to harm himself by playing on 60 (which clearly carries disadvantages, such as the ones you wrote above) then LET him do it. We all should have a choice between 30 or 60.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 05:25:18 pm by krystianoo »
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jansi

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Re: Improving Future Vice Wars
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2016, 06:26:31 pm »
I did complain about the locked FL:OFF for a minute or so and then gave up and switched to minor support tasks. It was impossible to fight, all my kills were mostly just luck. Based on /fps command my FPS was 59-60. I don't know if it was really because of high FPS or not, but this happened only on VW server and FPS was the most obvious distinction.

Problem 1 - controls sometimes did not register.
Examples:
- Sometimes it was impossible to get/jump off/out of moving/stationary bikes/cars. I had to press F multiple times.
- Helicopters felt a little less responsive than normal.
- It was impossible to consistently crouch glitch. This happened even on low speed, so it was NOT me doing something wrong.
- Sometimes after blowing up a car and trying to jump backwards my character did not jump and got knocked down.

Problem 2 - inconsistent weapon switching (maybe stems from problem 1).
If I scrolled the mouse wheel once, or twice, or thrice, etc, sometimes nothing happened and I had to scroll again, sometimes it switched to the correct weapon, and sometimes it switched more times than I intended to (i.e. 2 instead of 1).
My weapon choice was very limited because of this, since more weapons == higher chance of switching to wrong one during combat.




My vote is to use the same setting as are used on majority of popular servers. I think it is quite logical if you are organizing an event open to most of the VCMP players.
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stormeus

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Re: Improving Future Vice Wars
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2016, 06:49:06 pm »
@Stormeus
Quote
- Players at reasonable framerates won't have to deal with choppier and more frictional waves on boats.
I have no idea what this means. Boats at 60 FPS are way slower than they are on 30, which is a disadvantage for the 60 FPS players.

Yeah actually that's exactly what I said. 30fps is more reasonable than 60 in VC.

Quote
You put only 2 things that are an advantage, well, maybe 3 - the jump on railings thing is nearly useless, helicopter start up is a second or 2, but sure, it's an advantage even if a little one - it takes less than 1 or 2 seconds to destroy a helicopter with a stubby/m60 or to headshot the pilot. Whatever.
The rest is not an advantage for 60 FPS players, I assume since you're from USA you'll probably be familiar with the term 'volenti non fit iniuria' - if somebody wants to harm himself by playing on 60 (which clearly carries disadvantages, such as the ones you wrote above) then LET him do it. We all should have a choice between 30 or 60.

Except you end up disadvantaging people playing at 30fps anyway because your wacky boat physics and shitty sync and inability to register certain keypresses in time ends up making you far less predictable of a player.

And like I already said, consistency is more important in a competition than framerates.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 06:50:42 pm by stormeus »
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Re: Improving Future Vice Wars
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2016, 10:45:27 pm »
Something not mentioned above is that players at 60fps (and more commonly at above 60) can take more damage from falling, and are more likely to take self-damage just by doing something as idiotically mundane as jumping from the street onto a sidewalk.
True, I experience this a lot, particularly in combat. However I don't find this a big issue for myself.
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Re: Improving Future Vice Wars
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2016, 04:12:59 am »
Something not mentioned above is that players at 60fps (and more commonly at above 60) can take more damage from falling, and are more likely to take self-damage just by doing something as idiotically mundane as jumping from the street onto a sidewalk.
True, I experience this a lot, particularly in combat. However I don't find this a big issue for myself.

But I do. yes :)
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NewK

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Re: Improving Future Vice Wars
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2016, 02:18:42 pm »
Problem 2 - inconsistent weapon switching (maybe stems from problem 1).
If I scrolled the mouse wheel once, or twice, or thrice, etc, sometimes nothing happened and I had to scroll again, sometimes it switched to the correct weapon, and sometimes it switched more times than I intended to (i.e. 2 instead of
Thank god I'm not the only one. This happens to me alot while playing with FL OFF and is the main reason why I always play with FL ON. There's some fuckery going on with way the weapons switch, it's really inconsistent and annoying, It may not happen to everyone but it does happen to a few players, me including.

It keeps switching like 2 or 3 weapons at a time. Makes it considerably more dificult to have a normal close range shotgun fight without looking like a retard crouching with ingrams and colts instead of switching to the actual shotgun. Players at 60fps might have a few advantages like the ones mentioned above, but if I have to choose between playing at 60fps with retarded weapon switching and 30fps with normal weapon switching, I'll take 30fps thank you very much.
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Re: Improving Future Vice Wars
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2016, 02:56:54 pm »
Quote
Except you end up disadvantaging people playing at 30fps anyway because your wacky boat physics and shitty sync and inability to register certain keypresses in time ends up making you far less predictable of a player.
I thought people on 60 send more network packets... how come there's an inability to register certain keypresses? Boat physics don't even matter, something like naval combat can't exist when a guy that's shooting from a boat is seen getting up and down repeatedly by other players regardless of the framerate. Wacky and shitty, right?
Define shitty sync. In combat? Or maybe when pushing cars or other things that don't even matter?



What does 30 FPS MIN mean? That people will be kicked for having average FPS below 30?

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stormeus

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Re: Improving Future Vice Wars
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2016, 01:54:27 am »
I didnt see anyone say "in this Vice War all I had happening were people who heli started too quickly, guys doing glitches I cant do" and so on, the closest thing is the scroll wheel switch which they can personally help themselves to by running FL on 30 fps.

Probably because no one bothered to notice, investigate, or point out that there are a good variety of pros and cons to 60fps and above beyond. Before I pointed out that movement speed was essentially the same in 0.3 at 60fps with a video and did some fancy theorizing before becoming a dev, virtually everyone here believed that playing at 60fps was the same as speed hacking and gave you impossible glitching power. No one then, myself included, cared to investigate further, that was considered case closed.

The best example for how 60fps can be abused in a real situation is the army base, which is rife with thin stair railings that can be abused for a speed boost. One of the retorts in this thread is that there's no real way to exploit the railing jump, except there is, in rather cowardly fashion. Obviously at 30fps, railing jumps are virtually impossible, but even at just 60fps, you can use them to make some pretty dumb getaways that wouldn't even fall under death evasion rules.



(This is literally the exact same thing spectators in VCDC were doing to cross the transparent barrier and break into the fighting ring.)

Besides the game engine shitshow that is R*/Renderware at 60+ frames, I'm really waiting to see the shitshow that happens in the community when people adjust their framerates higher than 60 on public servers.

Going back to the army base example, the things you can do with a decent graphics card are hilarious when you start getting to 250-300fps. For instance, the railing in front of the building in the LW army spawn essentially allows for self-propelled flight. At that speed you can disable the frame limiter, jump on it, glide all the way to the roof of the adjacent building, and turn your frame limiter back on for normal play.

http://imgur.com/a/nkEbK

And this is just the easiest/first thing I could think of. I'm well aware that people in the community can get very creative with the way they use game bugs and glitches. You could get around this particularly egregious kind of abuse by capping the framerate at 60 anyway, but that doesn't fix the prior example or any issues like it, or fix any of the other issues raised.

Hence why I think this is an issue that is rather game changing at best, and absolutely game breaking at worst. It's essentially allowing playing with completely different game constraints, and it's something that every single active dev on the VC:MP team has warned against, and there's not much we can do to fix it because we don't have the entire game engine readily reversed.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 03:53:43 am by stormeus »
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NewK

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Re: Improving Future Vice Wars
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2016, 03:45:18 am »
The option that would please most players would obviously be not enforcing any FL setting at all, but the most correct and reasonable one is of course locking it to 30fps. There's several scenarios where 60fps players will have advantages. I've posted this here before, but let's imagine that on the next VW the red base is on the police station rooftops in downtown. Now here's what it looks like for players at 30 and 60 fps.

30 fps
60 fps

Like on every staircase rail, the players playing at 60fps have the advantage because they have access to areas where players playing at 30fps don't.

I don't even understand why there's such a big fuss about this, back in the day, most people played at 30fps and there was no whinning about this. I could even understand if Vice City was a recent PC game with good graphics and smooth animations. I could understand people really wanting to play at 60fps and preserve all of that. But this game was released in 2002, let's be reasonable, this game still looks and feels like shit by today's standards no matter what FPS you play it in, 30 or 60. 

I'm sure there's many more bugs related to 60fps that we probably don't even know about yet, there's all sorts of nasty exploits in the previous VC:MP versions that took years to find out. In 0.3 there was all sorts of game-breaking bugs; ghost world, floating, sliding and there was even an aimbot glitch you could do with the ingrams that not many people even knew about. And this was all on 30fps. Do you guys really want to add yet another variable to the cocktail mix of player sync in VC:MP by having people playing at different FPS? And what are the reasons behind this super important fixation to playing in 60fps? Because it's smoother. That's it, that's the only reason. Which is absolutely not worth it in my opinion. This reply is not meant to change the staff's mind on changing to "30fps locked" since that choice has been made already. This reply is just a last ditch effort for players to understand that we would all benefit if everyone played at 30fps.


Here, lets make a list of PROS and CONS of 60fps:

CONS
Problem 1 - controls sometimes did not register.
Examples:
- Sometimes it was impossible to get/jump off/out of moving/stationary bikes/cars. I had to press F multiple times.
- Helicopters felt a little less responsive than normal.
- It was impossible to consistently crouch glitch. This happened even on low speed, so it was NOT me doing something wrong.
- Sometimes after blowing up a car and trying to jump backwards my character did not jump and got knocked down.

Problem 2 - inconsistent weapon switching (maybe stems from problem 1).
If I scrolled the mouse wheel once, or twice, or thrice, etc, sometimes nothing happened and I had to scroll again, sometimes it switched to the correct weapon, and sometimes it switched more times than I intended to (i.e. 2 instead of

- You enforce frame limiter off on VC:MP servers instead of FL on, aggravating the effects of FPS warp because now people who can barely hold 30fps are warping 15-50 instead of 15-30 when people moan enough about laggers as it is.
- Cars being pushed by players will be subject to different physics depending on who's pushing it and if the car is occupied, causing more warps due to bad interp.
- Players at 60fps and up can use stair railing jumps to reach locations that might otherwise be impossible to reach.
- Players at 60+ can evade attackers more easily with air vehicles since takeoff time is MUCH lower at higher framerates.
- Players at reasonable framerates won't have to deal with choppier and more frictional waves on boats.
- Sounds playing or looping too quickly at higher framerates are annoying at best and deceptive at worst, potentially giving players a false impression of what's actually going on around them.
- Have fun taking random damage just from jumping around I guess?
- Players at 60fps will have a harder time shooting from on top of a moving vehicle. The game will more frequently see this as a collision and you'll die faster.

PROS

It's smoother.



The choice is clear to me.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 04:45:59 am by NewK »
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HONEY.SINGH

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Re: Improving Future Vice Wars
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2016, 04:35:20 am »
No what I mean is that if players can choose what ever limit they set, there will be players that will intentionally play at like 10 FPS (HONEY_SINGH).

My fps 10 Really :o
Axxo, Wilson know about My FPS

Check here FPS
https://frames-per-second.appspot.com/

some other Suggestions

1.Free weps this is vice war we are there for war if we don't have weps what we do there  Dance so weps free
2.Auto kick for laggers or Low Fps ([EAF]Brain)
3.add  Heal cmd
4.players show on maps
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 05:36:10 am by HONEY.SINGH »
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NewK

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Re: Improving Future Vice Wars
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2016, 04:48:44 am »
what we do there Nigga Dance so weps free
You paint with words my friend
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Re: Improving Future Vice Wars
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2016, 05:35:43 am »
what we do there Nigga Dance so weps free
You paint with words my friend


Sry for this word if i hurts some one  :'(
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