Vice Underdogs
Discussion => VC:MP General => Topic started by: Charley on March 18, 2016, 10:53:57 pm
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So I've been thinking for a little while now whether it would be a good idea to revive XE. On a trip home this week I found a relatively recent version of the script, and apparently it would be easy enough to convert it into 0.4. In truth, it's quite a simple script, but it is one that has been honed and sharpened over about 10+ years to provide interesting, varied, balanced gameplay.
First a little history.
XE was started by Tommis, I believe, in 2006. He wrote the first script using irc. It may have had an MTA incarnation prior to that, but I don't remember exactly. In 2008, as it had become a haven for hackers, Tommis gave head admin status to ULK.HeAD. HeAD recruited a bunch of ULKs and people who didn't like LWs, and started administrating the server properly, putting Prontera and Bishop in the top spots. In 2009, HeAD made SGB the manager, SGB took over the hosting fees, and Aki was appointed a head admin. At the same time, I unofficially started acting as an advisor to HeAD via email, and he started acting as an advisor for SvM. I came back to VC:MP properly in 2010, and found that the XE scripts were essentially broken, there were almost no players, and most of the staff had deserted. There was no one left managing the server, as HeAD, Akiharu, SGB and Sephiroth (who had been brought into management at some point) had disappeared. So ULK.Vinny, myself, Tical and Venkat decided that we should act. I wrote a fresh script, based on the old XE model, in squirrel. The others helped test it, and then helped the relaunch of the server. The relaunch took a little time to gather steam, but after a month or two XE was back on top. Sephiroth and Aki came back, and HeAD started looking at the forum occasionally too. It was at this time, in 2011, that I was officially brought into management. Aki disappeared again, Vinny went psycho, and Venkat focused on his studies, leaving Sephiroth, Tical and I to run the show. It was not easy, as Seph and Tical hated each other, and Seph and I would argue frequently too. After Aki and Bishop came back, shit went very bad, and things imploded a little. There were thousands of behind-the-scenes arguments about racism, ULK bias and general stupidity. Shit went down between VU and ULK, and I quit management, but I left them with my script. Along with me went a lot of VUs and a few ULKs too, leaving the server slightly bare. I decided to leave them with my script, and after that, George was brought in. After that I don't know what happened.
Here's what I propose.
As a community we open and run XE again, with a new admin team, a new forum, and a new host. It will stand for the following values, which HeAD and I agreed on in 2009: equality of judgement (every player is judged on his or her individual merits, not on his or her clan); equal opportunity (everyone is able to apply to become a part of the XE staff, and to contribute to the shaping of the server); free, balanced gameplay (the number one goal in XE was to allow players to do whatever they wanted, as long as it was just as easy for a new player to do the same); openness and consultation (changes to the server will be communicated to the community, and will be open for discussion).
I do not have time to be the day-to-day manager of the server, nor be the scripter, nor be the webmaster. I can however oversee the server staff, including the management and admin team. I understand that people may not like this idea, however in reality I believe this is what it will take for XE to succeed again. I'm also willing to collaborate with George on this, if it is what the community would recommend.
I have a version of the script which was last updated in March 2012. That makes it a fairly recent one. Looking back now, it was not a very efficient or clean script, but it was a solid one. If a dedicated, trusted, active scripter could volunteer to convert it, then this could be easy to get off the ground.
One thing I do know, is that XE can never live again if it is under the current or old management system.
My problems and my questions
I'm a little out of touch. I only know the history of XE up until I left, and after that, I know nothing. It could be that this is a bad idea, and that it would be a better idea to try and support George and whoever else is currently trying to revive the server. I truly believe that is not the case, and that the old framework is broken, but if someone would like to bring to light some facts that might change this point of view, then they should.
So question one: do you know any reason why I and we shouldn't do this?
As I said I don't have time to convert the scripts, or maintain them. So...
Question two: are there any dedicated, active, trusted scripters who would be interested in doing this?
I also do not have time to set up hosting or the forum.
Question three: is anyone interested in this part of XE, of helping rebuild the backbone of the server?
But then, all of this has no point if people don't think there's any need or appetite for XE to come back. Ultimately, whilst XE occupied a unique position in terms of its features and community years ago, now there are servers who have identical and additional features, and communities to go with them to. So...
Question four: do you think this would work? Is there any room in VC:MP for XE today?
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There is a need of XE because EC cant handle more players at a time, and their monet system sux.
It would be good if we get a decent server to play on without any problem.
The answer to the 1st question is upto you.
Just keep in mind why you rejected to continue the last time.
Talking about scripters, I only see Drake around.
George,aXXo,HeAd, murdock and the others are busy with their stuff.
Drake wont be bad if he dont have any problem working with another server which will compete with his server later.
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Would love to help in administering only if it's run by new and neat staff. speaking of scripter drake is a good choice to be honest, but it's only if he got time for it.
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HeAD was never a scripter, and if Drake is making a similar server then it kind of rules him out I guess.
As for why I quit before, it was due to internal politics, which hypothetically wouldn't exist in a new server.
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HeAD was never a scripter, and if Drake is making a similar server then it kind of rules him out I guess.
Well, yes I am developing a script for a server I thought would be great to replace XE or rather be a new hub for DM'ers, because out there no server is better to play on nowadays. I did stop developing it some weeks ago as I am working on A/D's new script.
TBH, it would be a great pleasure for me to work on for XE's new script and I have no problems stopping the development of the script for my own server because all I want to do is to have a great server to play on and not only for me, everyone wants a good, decent DM server which lacks in VC:MP now. It would be the same case if I develop the script for my own server or for XE.
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So question one: do you know any reason why I and we shouldn't do this?
If we plan to have a new scripts, a new forum, a new management and a new community then why should we start it as XE? We could rather have a fresh start in a new independent server. Something that does not start with "Extreme" or ends with "City" ::)
Reviving an old thing is not always the best idea. The nostalgia of old things is a bitter competition.
Question two: are there any dedicated, active, trusted scripters who would be interested in doing this?
The decent scripters that I know are pretty much busy with their lives or separate projects. I guess you would need some sort of application process to find out volunteers.
Question three: is anyone interested in this part of XE, of helping rebuild the backbone of the server?
I personally think that 0.4 brings a lot of stuff to the table that will not be feasible to use in an XE styled server. I would prefer to have a RPGDM server with clan territories/gang wars flavor using all the awesome stuff available in 0.4.
Question four: do you think this would work? Is there any room in VC:MP for XE today?
EC(European City) is the new XE, though it has some shortcomings:
- The forum sucks. Maybe I'm just used to VUs forum and Thijn's standards 8) because I can't bear the sight of the EC forum.
- 35 slots. The server is full on peak times, they should definitely have 100 slots.
- Script lag. I have seen some warps during fights, but they are inconsistent, so I'm not sure. Giving the scripter a benefit of doubt, it might have been the host, my own Internet, or the guy I was fighting.
Some people claim that the EC management is poor, their staff is inexperienced and the community is full of brain donors. Though, I disagree. The reports are handled quick, admins are always available and the DM scene just works out, so I have no complains regarding the management, staff or the community.
EA(Extreme-Addicts) has all the ingredients to be a great server. It's just that the initial script created by whomever is broken and no one from the development team(Castagna, aXXo, maxorator, X_94) can be arsed to fix it. Sorry Cast :(
EG(Empire Gaming) and VK's server are the servers that have active and talented scripters. It needs someone to step in the managerial role to advertise the server, create a community backbone and add some kind of personality and flavor in the server. Currently it feels like the scripters have been jizzing off code trying to create a cumshot painting.
If you haven't played on Chinese servers yet, then you have missed a lot in VCMP. Just try them out and maybe you get a managerial position :D. It would be cool to have a Brit bring down the great Chinese wall and bring them closer to the rest of the community. I'm always curious what are they up to.
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But they've already decided to bring back XE.
www.xe-servers.com
It'd be better if the older staff continues. As we all know, XE had a reputation of having good staff members. Only ones you think are capable of being an administrator should be invited and not some random newbies/wannabe. I'd say talk to George as he pops out in IRC time to time.
No new staff, hosting or script please. XE was unique. I'd say continue VRocker hosting or maybe let George hosting go on. It won't be amusing to see if full one sided staff list will be made. It'd be better if recruitment is as hard as Vice War staff. I'd say recruit a badass player in the staff as first admin (morphine is a good example), he won't give a fuck to the background of the player who's applying and obviously there won't be any formalities. Trust me, it won't be amusing to see a full memberlist of a clan in the staff list like it was the case before when every TLK was an admin. One last thing, let George stay the head scripter / owner, as you see he's fully committed to XE and no other community.
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I second a fresh start. While its obviously clear where EC got its inspirations from, to revive XE in such a fashion would just seem competitive rather than developmental for the community. XE, the admins, moderators & scripters all have their reputation so creating a new server with new ideas should draw easy attention.
the community is full of brain donors.
It's one of the standout things for me with EC. The players are children, teens physically but thought processes comparable to 6 year olds, and they have an unexplainable dog eat dog kind of mentality in how they operate. I never understood how such a development occurs but it's very concerning.
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Hello Charley.
I'm Zatch and I'm Moderator of XE since 2012.
I'm happy because you got interested in XE in these days so i logged immediatly to post what i have to say.
In 2015 i was thinking in bringing back XE without caring how difficult it could result but when george came back again with great news of re-writting the new scripts to become XE like the old one i support him announcing all the players who are still interested in the server. Anyways, im not a scripter, i never have been interested in becoming scripter so im not good related with that just i'm a DM player who has administrative knowledge but it doesn't mean that i won't try to do my best to revive the server. I'm very interested in this project and with the help from others who are interested too would be succesful.
Some of you are saying that it will be useless all of this but at least we are trying to bring back it again. Creating a new server takes a lot of time and work plus it needs a lot of advertisement by videos or by word of mouth.
Well, thats my point of view. Cheers
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If its the old XE, there will be more player count
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I have a couple of things to say too
Reading this post really gave me more belief of reviving the server back.I should thank you.
I think,the current staff of XE is full of capable guys.And we are eagerly waiting this to happen.The current forum is perfect.And almost all players in vcmp(old or new) has their accounts there.
So,no need of a new forum.The ones that will be in staff will get their ranks quickly.
XE is currently in the state of what a new server is today.Things have been left behind.Favoritism,racism and dramas,they all are over.Opening a new server is not helpful too.
The problem is,we need a good management team.And those guys must be well known for adding up to the VCMP community.Then welcoming active moderators and admins is easy.
Waiting for the day of collabration,
Regards
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I'll give this another day or two for people to give their opinions before replying again; just putting this here so that people know I am keeping an eye on the thread.
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in my opinion a server like xe would be good but you should create some unique features
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Well, yes, if the old XE comes back, it will get players. It is not a bad idea though, but you must 1st confirm from the XE owner if he is thinking to bring it back, if not, then, for sure, bring it back.
Good Luck!
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Well, yes, if the old XE comes back, it will get players. It is not a bad idea though, but you must 1st confirm from the XE owner if he is thinking to bring it back, if not, then, for sure, bring it back.
Good Luck!
Sir, this is not your room right now.
Go check xe-servers.com and then think of replying.
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Hi Charley, I never really got to know you personally, I've been mostly playing while you were gone, I didn't catch you when you were managing the server, nevertheless I completely agree with every single word of yours as an participator of all of the events in 2013-2014. I appreciate and support your wish to revive XE under the new hierarchy, this would be the best option as of now, because I don't know who else could pull XE out of the abyss right now. Aki and co. killed this server completely and he needs his power to be taken off.
I'll bring you a brief story about how everything was going during these years. Won't say much about ulk-above-all stuff, you know times didn't change, they were still covering each other's asses from time to time. I joined the staff in march 2013 and been actively playing since then. In the autumn of 2013 Aki wanted to show how much of a badass he is and went egocentric faggot, as an outcome Ulk was divided, xe lost a few regular players. Then there began F1 era, when every single lagger was being accussed of usage this hack, some latinoamericans were banned for using and spreading it, this made irreparable damage to the server. I decided to take an initiative and started making events to attract players' attention back. Been also asking for a board for events for the whole month (everyone was so busy, they couldn't devote 5 minutes of their time to me). It helped a little, but after the second event I realized it was a failure. XE was dying, I resigned in the august of 2014 (it also took a few weeks to remove my rank, which again shows how careful everyone in the staff was), this was going to nowhere, no one from the management gave a fuck. Neither akiharu, nor your hero George.
So yeah, aki's XE now sucks balls. George feeds you with empty promises and ya believe there's still a chance these two will make a dream-server. They both did nothing productive for XE for these years and don't deserve their high ranks. Don't put 'everyone has real life' shit into here, this isn't the case, george's been idling on the forums for 350+ days (watch xe forum stats, could he help somehow this community?) and it's not about a couple of weeks, it's a 1+ year of absolute standstill. Oh, yeah, let's not forget, he released a laggy 0.4 script, that was taken down a little later, because it looked like total bullshit. Think of my words, you won't go any further, teaming up with them, they both are COMPLETELY USELESS. Let's just remember that VW4 script was written by storm for one day, who, I'm pretty sure, has more responsibilities in his life. I'm done here, there's a chance of XE in our community, but without George and aki, consider them fired up. No overstatements, I post truly what I saw ^.
Hi everyone, btw.
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Well, yes, if the old XE comes back, it will get players. It is not a bad idea though, but you must 1st confirm from the XE owner if he is thinking to bring it back, if not, then, for sure, bring it back.
Good Luck!
Sir, this is not your room right now.
Go check xe-servers.com and then think of replying.
Ok, sorry, actually i did try to visit there but i am not registered there and it needs admin approval. So sorry, i'll take care next time.
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Dear Charleycartoon;
This is an issue that really caught my attention, since seeing all the arguments published by some people seems pathetic and completely out of context. Honestly, most people here have not the slightest idea what the server was in his time.
To begin with, let's be honest, there's no longer an opportunity for a similar or possibly equal server like XE, this server had it's lifetime, it's era of glory and potentially, at some point in history the best server created and managed by an excellent and well distributed administration. There is currently a server which already took that place, I think we all are aware of that and if some people do not believe, unfortunately you guys are fucking morons, as simple as that.
As a past member of the administration, I'm in the position to mention several things that XE community should know. The server not only suffered losses of high level administrative people, but also suffered a massive attack of stupidity, idiots who appeared from one moment to another on the server, providing or starting dramas and the well-known bad reputation. I was ULK member and I can assure you that it wasn't all about the clan itself, if the server went down, it was because of one person, an egocentric who had the idea of keeping it all, even when he was only a moron in this game.
EC management is poor, their staff is inexperienced and the community is full of brain donors.
Interesting and funny coming from you mentioning those points, considering that those useless idiots are your friends and clearly comparable to your level of administrative incompetence.
Apart from this, the server was attacked by the modification known as "F1" of which I was part. I really have no reason to hide this fact, because it's part of my story and it's part of XE's story, one of the facts that marked the beginning and at the same time an end to this server.
>¿What does this mean? People no longer want to play on a server with such a low reputation as XE, although the current VC-MP community is infected with multifaceted idiots and asslickers. Accept it, don't put false hopes in potentially useless people.
>I'm sure that sooner or later, something similar will happen if somehow you guys manage to revive this server, the server that should stay where it is.
>The server is originally owned by ULK, as simple as that. XE keys were given from Tommis to ULK, don't expect a nice response from them, especially from a complete idiot like Pakiharu.
If you want to give people something new and exciting, I would prefer the idea to revive Sharks vs Marios; unique server and highly successful in his time. I and the people who once spent hours enjoying the game mode, with those simple but incredible mechanics will agree with me and I can ensure you it will be something that will succeed, because there isn't something similar.
That would not be CTF, LW or EC.
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Interesting and funny coming from you mentioning those points, considering that those useless idiots are your friends and clearly comparable to your level of administrative incompetence.
You probably breezed through the series of long posts in this topic and did not bother to actually read them.
Quoting myself, with bolded stuff that you might have missed out.
Some people claim that the EC management is poor, their staff is inexperienced and the community is full of brain donors. Though, I disagree. The reports are handled quick, admins are always available and the DM scene just works out, so I have no complains regarding the management, staff or the community.
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I liked the idea of reviving XE. XE was a great server ever and will remain great. Teaming up with George (if he is not lying about rewriting 0.3's xe script) and appointing a new and active scripter for converting that 0.3 script to 0.4 with george would be good idea. Aki's power should be taken for destroying the server. Management and administration should be refreshed. Some old guys which are still active should be given higher ranks and then getting some new and fresh staff (not from only one clan and making it VU XE, or ULK XE or etc) will be better. XE is unique, EC is just a fail copy of XE. And it got many of inexperienced players in staff I can surely say that except few people in staff, the rest is totally inexperienced yet it managed high counts of players because the most of XE regular players and other DM players have no other choice to play at but only EC. Reviving back XE with old classical style may cause death to EC as EC script is a bit laggy which can't stand in competition with XE script and will manage more player counts than EC as I know many players who left playing at EC because of the staff and some features that they don't like and waiting for George to bring up XE. We already have XE forum which is great in all aspects. Just rearranging staff there won't be bad idea. If doing fresh start then as axxo said why not starting totally new server. That's just my opinion. kthnxbai.
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To be honest, EC has better staff than XE why? because they have good manners, and i don't see where EC copied XE, XE died and EC came that's XE's fault not EC's.
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How about xe's current staff and past staff members discuss it? rest of us (including myself) can go and fuck off, because one thing for sure you ain't getting admin level by commenting bs here.
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Thanks for your replies everyone. I don't want this thread to contain drama, but rather be a mature discussion. This is not a thread for personal arguments. I've split the off-topic posts into another thread.
Instead of addressing people's posts individually, I'm going to address the issues individually, and hopefully cover everything.
Why XE? Why not a new server? And why not one of the current server?
XE is more than a simple TDM server, it is a brand, a community, and an ethos. People who know XE know what to expect, they trust it as a server, and they agree with its core values. Additionally, the way the spawnpoints have been set up, the locations of the cars, the available commands, have all been honed over years to provide the best DM experience in VC:MP.
The Old Forum
I agree that the old forum is great, however, we will never be able to get control over it. It is paid for and administrated by Akiharu, and he would never agree to anyone else taking over. If we revive XE, it has to be a new server.
The Old Management/Staff Team
Tommis gave the server to HeAD, not to ULK. HeAD recruited ULKs because he knew and trusted them, but every one of them except for Tical and to some degree Sephiroth proved incapable of running XE responsibly. If HeAD were to come back, I would be happy for him to adopt a management position, no questions asked. The others, though, are not cut out for the job.
As for George, he is an incredibly nice guy, but he doesn't have a huge understanding of XE. He was brought in following my resignation because Aki needed a scripter. He may have changed a little, but my memory of him is represented by the post he made shortly before he got appointed:
I say, Please stop of do stupid things, you are manager in XE, know what is this?!, isn't one small thing it's one big thing, us are actually the best server in VC:MP, why? Because us are competent and doing our works.
Now the best manager for me, does this! the manager than i would like of be in future, yeah you is right, i'm so sad.
New management
I suggest we change how the management system works in XE. Instead of having a small management team, whose reliability the server fundamentally relies on, we use a system more similar to the ULK and VU clan system - just like all full members are the leaders of VU, all senior admins should be the managers of XE. I would not be a server manager, but I would be a server coordinator. This would mean that I would be responsible for the initial recruitment of staff, and the coordination of forum, rules, script and hosting. After the number of 'managing admins' increases, I would act as a guide and, if necessary, as the one with final say in disputes. Normal management of the server, however, would be the responsibility of the managing admins. This is the system I propose:
Server Coordinator
[VU]Charley
Managing Admins - additional roles listed after names
The number of managing admins will start off as small, but grow. Managing admins will have a proven understanding of and belief in XE core values.
[MK]Jackson - head scripter, recruitment team
[VU]Aiden - web master, scripting team
[SC]Liam - forum admin, scripting team
Lucas - recruitment team, displine team
[DUz]Noah - events team
Mason
Caden - events team
[SS]Jacob
STF.Logan - recruitment team
Jayden - discipline team
ULK.Alex - discipline team
Elijah
[EAF]Jack - events team, recruitment team
[TpS]Luke - scripting team
[VU_R]Michael - events team
[DnA]Benjamin - recruitment team
Admins
[MK]Alexander
[DnA]James
Jayce
Caleb
[ON]Connor
=TRC=William
[SS]Carter
[VU]Ryan
Oliver
Moderators
Matthew
Daniel
Gabriel
Henry
Owen
The Script
One thing I think is important is that we establish a scripting team, with one head scripter. That way we don't have to rely on just one person all the time - which is better for the scripter, and better for the community.
Drake, I'm very happy that you have said that you're interested in converting the script. Before we confirm it, we need to have a conversation about it. We will both have expectations that we need to discuss, and see whether it can work out. This will have to be done via pm on this forum, or via email, whichever you prefer, as I'm not flexible enough to do it on irc.
New Features
New features can be discussed after the original server features are established. We must not bite off more than we can chew.
Agree or disagree
If you agree to the above proposals, please rate this post agree. If you disagree, please rate it disagree. If you disagree, it would be great if you could post and explain why, but this isn't essential. Also, tell me if I've missed anything.
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I have no idea why Akiharu hasn't posted here yet, but I'm quoting himself on the post he made at the staff section. Just to know the opinion of the XE existing team.
Despite past disputes and Charley's slightly blurry picture of the history of XE, I feel rather okay about the possibility of a collaboration with Charley, VU and other active members of the community. At the end of the day, I still believe that XE was and still has the potential to be the best server ever in VC:MP. I think Charley and many others can do a lot in terms of bringing XE back.
That being said, one thing that needs to be addressed first is Charley's misunderstanding that he can "revive" XE without the involvement and agreement of the existing XE team. He is more than welcome to launch a brand new server (like he did with EA), just not under the XE name. This is an important issue and needs to be addressed first before we can even begin a conversation about collaboration.
Now, the active current members agree on a collaboration to bring XE back, however, there are some things that must be known. I personally, hope that Akiharu's post won't make any drama or something related with here.
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I do not want XE making a comeback because:
- I personally want a diversity of gamemodes in VCMP, rather than plain old DM. It would be great if the intended efforts are put in:
- RPGDM with gang territories, inventories, treasury. This would be a really complex script but would stretch VCMP to it's limits.
- Two team Death Match like SvM or ViceLegends. - It will be a direct competition to EC which might result in a split player base. EC and XE are almost same as far as the gameplay is concerned. Both the servers will lack the epic clusterfuck massive wars if the player base is split. It would be nice if only one of those server exists. Since, EC is already established we should let it keep the prime position.
- Xtreme Elites was originally a clan that has been non-existent in a decade. Why do you want to continue it's legacy?
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Apologies for the delay, but I will post a response to this thread within the next 12 hours. Great to see that everyone is still interested in XE.
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Apologies for the delay, but I will post a response to this thread within the next 12 hours. Great to see that everyone is still interested in XE.
Sure, as long as you don't attempt to hack our forum again ;p
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@Charley,The only disagreement part of the post you've made,is about getting rank in both forum and server.
While we expect collabration and help from community,You are putting personal matters between you and him.Which is completely wrong and leads to nowhere but disagreement for this.
This wouldnt even come this far if he didnt want this to be discussed.You dont have to like each other,but you can make a collabration just to revive it and focus on what to do
#strictlybussiness
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It won't be amusing to see if full one sided staff list will be made. It'd be better if recruitment is as hard as Vice War staff. I'd say recruit a badass player in the staff as head admin (morphine is a good example), he won't give a fuck to the background of the player who's applying and obviously there won't be any formalities. Trust me, it won't be amusing to see a full memberlist of a clan in the staff list like it was the case before when every ULK was an admin.
As you know, good staff attracts a lot of players.
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I do not want XE making a comeback because:
- I personally want a diversity of gamemodes in VCMP, rather than plain old DM. It would be great if the intended efforts are put in:
- RPGDM with gang territories, inventories, treasury. This would be a really complex script but would stretch VCMP to it's limits.
- Two team Death Match like SvM or ViceLegends. - It will be a direct competition to EC which might result in a split player base. EC and XE are almost same as far as the gameplay is concerned. Both the servers will lack the epic clusterfuck massive wars if the player base is split. It would be nice if only one of those server exists. Since, EC is already established we should let it keep the prime position.
- Xtreme Elites was originally a clan that has been non-existent in a decade. Why do you want to continue it's legacy?
to be honest, this is the only post that has caught my attention so far.
as aXXo, I am all about promoting diversity and competition in the context of VC-MP gamemodes and VC-MP servers.
in regard to Vice Legends, I can write the following - the project will be resurfacing in the near future, seeing as I have, with great effort, found the script that stormeus and I had made for the previous version of VC-MP and it'll be in working condition soon enough.
as for SvM, it would be healthy to revive this project too seeing as it was quite a unique concept at the time of its inception, and I don't see any projects similar to it to this day either. I had the script for it at some point but can't find it now, so if Thijn wants to get this thing going again, I'm open for discussion. I can arrange for hosting if stormeus will not object. :)
last but not least - XE. if both sides (team Charley and team Akiharu) do not come to a consensus on how to revive/initiate this project, then XE will follow ULK's footsteps and you'll have the choice of playing on either XE 1 (OFFICIAL SERVER UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE) and XE 2 (SINCE 2003 MORE OFFICIAL THAN OFFICIAL SERVER XE 1), that's my view on it anyway.
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Guys, make something new instead of bringing old stuff back. New and genius ideas are the key to success and coming up with something unique will sure bring you more players, not staff. ;)
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Most of you guys mistaken the point why this topic was made.
As title says too,This topic was merely made to maturely discuss the future of XE.Charley could have collabrated his own staff and made it's discussion if it was another plan,just out of "XE" tag.Talking about another plans are also off-topic in my opinion.Just talk about if it's needed to bring it back or it should be left where it is now.
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Actually I wasn't aware that Aki is still active, I thought he had essentially abandoned VC:MP and XE. This does change things.
You are putting personal matters between you and him.Which is completely wrong and leads to nowhere but disagreement for this.
#strictlybussiness
I couldn't agree more. It's been years, and I have no interest in reviving any personal battles between Aki and I. So let's talk, strictly business.
Imagine that you help run a business, let's say a nightclub. You're responsible for DJing at the nightclub, and as part of a team you have a hand in running every other part of the business. While you are there DJing and helping run the place it is the most popular nightclub in town. Every night it is full of people enjoying themselves, dancing, drinking, 1v1ing, whatever. For some reason, you can't manage the nightclub anymore, you have to leave for a while, so the nightclub is left under the control of one of the other managers, a man with a dubious history, but nonetheless one who knows the nightclub very well indeed.
A couple of years after you left, you come back, and find that the nightclub is closed. Hmm, that's strange, how long has it been closed for? You wonder. You ask around a little, and find out that after you left, the nightclub started losing customers, the music started to suck, and eventually the whole place became so rundown that the management decided to shut it. A year ago, you hear, the management said that they were going to redecorate the nightclub, and with the help of a new DJ open again. How exciting! But it never happened. They had a 'taster' weekend, but when customers went in the speakers kept cutting out, and the music was crap.
Now I wonder, in this situation, would it be wise to try and revive the old nightclub, with the old manager, the one who ran the place into the ground, in control? If one man ran the nightclub so badly that all the customers left, and the nightclub had to close, would you trust him as a decent business partner?
#StrictlyBusiness
I personally want a diversity of gamemodes in VCMP, rather than plain old DM. It would be great if the intended efforts are put in:
- RPGDM with gang territories, inventories, treasury. This would be a really complex script but would stretch VCMP to it's limits.
- Two team Death Match like SvM or ViceLegends.
This is a very valid point, however, we have to understand the limits of the VC:MP community. EA has pretty much everything you mentioned and more. It is a server that has the backing of the official VC:MP dev team, it is synced up to the web, and really does everything many of us dreamed a VC:MP server would do. However, it has not taken off. The sad reality is that for a server to maintain a high playercount around here, it has to be simple. Most VC:MP players can't even speak English. In fact EA has that covered too, there's an option to run the game in a different language, and yet still nothing. It seems there's something in VC:MP players' psychology that will not allow for a server with dynamic, interesting features to be dominant, so we have to be realistic.
It will be a direct competition to EC which might result in a split player base. EC and XE are almost same as far as the gameplay is concerned. Both the servers will lack the epic clusterfuck massive wars if the player base is split. It would be nice if only one of those server exists. Since, EC is already established we should let it keep the prime position.
Yes indeed, splitting the playerbase would be a great shame. However, there are aspects of gameplay in XE that EC in its current setup just can't match, in my opinion. The clusterfuck massive wars seem to always be located downtown, usually around the bikers' bar, because of the spawnloc feature. By limiting spawn locations, XE allowed for the big battles to move locations. One day they may be at the bikers' bar, the next by the FBI HQ, the next at the army base, the next at Prawn Island.
EC is a fantastic server, in my point of view, with very dedicated and decent staff. But it is not XE.
Xtreme Elites was originally a clan that has been non-existent in a decade. Why do you want to continue it's legacy?
Another good point, but it's not the clan's legacy that we want to continue, it's the server's. Like I said before, XE grew to be a brand, an ethos, and the number of people who never speak on this forum piping up or voting in this thread shows, I think, that it still carries a great deal of weight.
last but not least - XE. if both sides (team Charley and team Akiharu) do not come to a consensus on how to revive/initiate this project, then XE will follow ULK's footsteps and you'll have the choice of playing on either XE 1 (OFFICIAL SERVER UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE) and XE 2 (SINCE 2003 MORE OFFICIAL THAN OFFICIAL SERVER XE 1), that's my view on it anyway.
Haha, yes indeed that would be a sorry situation, and it is making me consider whether or not this is a good idea - something I still haven't really decided on. However, if Aki and George have had this long to open a new server, then why should we think that they will? This topic wouldn't exist if they had produced something, but in reality, they haven't, and there's no real signs that they will.
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Having said all this, I'm still in two minds about whether this is a good idea or not. Drake is on-board for scripting, but we'd have to have a dedicated team of managing admins to do the rest. If there are still a lot of players who put their faith in the old XE, then this will not feasibly be possible. I'm not looking to struggle or to fight here, I'm looking for the community to bring back something many of us loved. There is support in this thread, but perhaps it's not enough.
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Now I wonder, in this situation, would it be wise to try and revive the old nightclub, with the old manager, the one who ran the place into the ground, in control? If one man ran the nightclub so badly that all the customers left, and the nightclub had to close, would you trust him as a decent business partner?
#StrictlyBusiness
Completely different situation than what we have currently.Let me point out.
Your resignment from staff was related to VU.You didnt risk of more revealing of private stuff.Not about managing the server.Plus after your resignment,server went still same for a couple of years.Despite the fact that we lost a fair amount of playercount.
Besides this,your resignment wasnt the only side effect for server to go downhill.
We have recieved DDOS es , dealt F1 Hacks and involvement of other ULK s.We can include George's slow going on process.This also led many of the staff members to resign.
You might be right about trusting or not after those events.But I see you guys are okay about a collabration.So why not?
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http://viceunderdogs.com/index.php?topic=6775.0
I think you're rushing this, regardless of the fact that the current XE management is not showing particular interest in engaging in a dialogue regarding the server.
I've said it once and I'll repeat it for those who, for one reason or another, have not managed to read it the first time:
last but not least - XE. if both sides (team Charley and team Akiharu) do not come to a consensus on how to revive/initiate this project, then XE will follow ULK's footsteps and you'll have the choice of playing on either XE 1 (OFFICIAL SERVER UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE) and XE 2 (SINCE 2003 MORE OFFICIAL THAN OFFICIAL SERVER XE 1), that's my view on it anyway.
a dispute regarding the rights for the server's name and whatnot will be lengthy and painstaking. I suggest you don't let it evolve into a dispute.
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Essentially we never had been asked before creating that Applications topic.We were still on a discussion.
Im not sure why aki doesnt come up here to talk about things related to this.Instead,he shows activity on XE forum.
We were trying to understand the true intention of Charley about how he's trying to help reviving it.But as aki thought,
That being said, one thing that needs to be addressed first is Charley's misunderstanding that he can "revive" XE without the involvement and agreement of the existing XE team. He is more than welcome to launch a brand new server (like he did with EA), just not under the XE name. This is an important issue and needs to be addressed first before we can even begin a conversation about collaboration.
Since this is the case,we will not apply to their servers.And it will not be under XE.Same for their upcoming forum.
Though,I will however try to talk to Charley himself
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After ULK1 and ULK2, there gonna be XE1 and XE2 O0
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Essentially we never had been asked before creating that Applications topic.We were still on a discussion.
Im not sure why aki doesnt come up here to talk about things related to this.Instead,he shows activity on XE forum.
We were trying to understand the true intention of Charley about how he's trying to help reviving it.But as aki thought,
That being said, one thing that needs to be addressed first is Charley's misunderstanding that he can "revive" XE without the involvement and agreement of the existing XE team. He is more than welcome to launch a brand new server (like he did with EA), just not under the XE name. This is an important issue and needs to be addressed first before we can even begin a conversation about collaboration.
Since this is the case,we will not apply to their servers.And it will not be under XE.Same for their upcoming forum.
Though,I will however try to talk to Charley himself
Funny is how he calls himself XE's manager, dont want to allow the guys who are willing to restart which he stopped.
Nobody said that he's not welcomed here.
Honor, you are in XE's staff and hence you should know what the people want.
I believe you have seen your xe's forums.
In either way, there is nothing interesting about XE right now which attracts me.
After ULK1 and ULK2, there gonna be XE1 and XE2 O0
ok like if ULK1's XE(as you say) will ever come to life at this rate.
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Funny is how he calls himself XE's manager, dont want to allow the guys who are willing to restart which he stopped.
Nobody said that he's not welcomed here.
Nobody intents to stop anyone.What Charley is doing right now,cannot be named as neither collabration nor helping "revive" the old XE.He's completely trying to open another server which uses old XE scripts with new forums ,new server and a new mamagement using XE name.
I dont get,what is wrong with involvement in current system?He's welcomed to involve in already.I should say that aki is not active enough nowadays compared to his old days.So Charley would still oversee anything and make decisions.I mean if thats the problem.
No matter how hated guy he was according to his actions in past,he was the guy who kept forums and server upand stood strong against all rough days with facing all insults and accepted them.
Its not that easy to give all the rights to one guy.But its easy to get involved in and help
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Funny is how he calls himself XE's manager, dont want to allow the guys who are willing to restart which he stopped.
Nobody said that he's not welcomed here.
Nobody intents to stop anyone.What Charley is doing right now,cannot be named as neither collabration nor helping "revive" the old XE.He's completely trying to open another server which uses old XE scripts with new forums ,new server and a new mamagement using XE name.
I dont get,what is wrong with involvement in current system?He's welcomed to involve in already.I should say that aki is not active enough nowadays compared to his old days.So Charley would still oversee anything and make decisions.I mean if thats the problem.
No matter how hated guy he was according to his actions in past,he was the guy who kept forums and server upand stood strong against all rough days with facing all insults and accepted them.
Its not that easy to give all the rights to one guy.But its easy to get involved in and help
basically everything I wanted to write in my previous post but wasn't really bothered to.
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Honor, his keeping the forum and server up was not an action supported by most of the community. What he did was not stand strong in the face of insults, he refused to relinquish control over something that had never been his to own. At one point he even demoted Sephiroth, someone who was supposed to be his equal, without asking anyone else.
Anyway, Aki may have changed, it has been years. However, if he really wants to help, he has to rebuild the trust between him and the community. But he can't do that from the top, he has to work his way up just like everyone else.
I'd be more than happy to give Aki or anyone from the old staff team a chance. In fact, if Aki were to apply to help out with the new server, I would take it as a sign that he really does care, and would make him a managing admin without question. Any of the old staff can apply, and they will be welcomed in. It is not an XE1 and XE2 scenario, because XE doesn't exist right now. It will just be XE.
The current system has proven itself not to work, so we're trying something new. We as a community are answering our own prayers for XE to be alive again, instead of waiting for one or two inactive people to do it.
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Actually , I 've tried to draw attentions of a point. I wanted people to focus on both you and aki with the posts i made.That helped alot to see what you actually think.Because everytime you made one of your traditionally "excessively long" posts,I felt they were lacking something.Unless this last one you made.
This was more personal focused and has more information about him from your point of view.
At the beggining of problems,I thought,if we hired a scripter and a manager,things would have gone smoothly and atlest the server would be online.
Surely it was not possible.Because all of the scripters were working for different kind of projects.As for the management,i have thought of a couple of names which i wont tell,but it was also not possible due the same reason i said for scripters.
While our current admins and moderators were discussing reviving of the server,George was teasing us with rare appearences.
aki said he can help the execution process,but rest was upto us.
Somehow George managed to release a private beta testing server.I can say we had alot of bugs in there.And wasnt actually the old XE that we expected.Community was willing the see the old XE.So we had it's discussion.
George said he started working on it ,Nothing happened since then.
Again somehow (which i still cant understand),we've seen Charley's post and this drew the most attention of aki.
Since he has rights of XE,this topic supposed to be reply-to-reply between Aki and Charley.A discussion from beggining to the point we are at.
Honestly,aki's silence in this thread frustrates me the most.Thats why I felt obligated and came up with question marks which also aki might have had.
As for myself,Im not trying to fight anyone here.All of the opinions of mine,are sincere and not to save anyone.My position in XE can be limited,but opinions are not.My self-trust is always full since I think im trying to do the right things.This means i have no fear of losing my level on this server.
If it's better for Community to do what Charley wants,so be it.But firstly we should read one more excessively long post from aki himself.
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I apologize again for the delay in response, but once I've gathered my thoughts and we (XE staff team) have fully discussed the matter, I will post a response. I feel and hope that I have already made it clear that I am open to discussing a collaboration.
In the meantime, Charley, I would really appreciate it if you do not jump the gun here and cease everything you are doing with relation to XE, immediately. I am not sure if this is a simple misunderstanding, but you do not have the right to put up a server under the XE name. If you really need me to explain why, I will happily do so in my next post. While I do realize that that our scripting efforts have been slow and little progress has been announced publicly, XE is far from dead; we have taken XE offline, but our staff members are very much alive and we have not given up on XE. We readily admit that we need every bit of help we can get from the community so we certainly welcome the possibility of a collaboration. I am not entirely sure yet what a collaboration will look like, but I am hoping that this is something we can discuss. Thanks.
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We readily admit that we need every bit of help we can get from the community so we certainly welcome the possibility of a collaboration. I am not entirely sure yet what a collaboration will look like, but I am hoping that this is something we can discuss. Thanks.
Thank you for finally posting Aki.
Here's the problem, I haven't seen nor heard of any valuable or significant dialogue between you and the community at all. The 'behind closed doors' approach has left everyone except for a select few completely in the dark regarding what's happening with XE. Instead of transparency and progress, it seems there have been false promises and neglect.
In my opinion, and in the opinion of the majority of the community it seems, XE has been left to flounder. It is only now that there is a prospect of an alternative, challenging the current command structure, that you have woken up and started engaging (albeit in a very limited way) with the community.
In the meantime, Charley, I would really appreciate it if you do not jump the gun here and cease everything you are doing with relation to XE, immediately.
I would love to pause and wait, but sadly it's not feasible. The only scripter available to convert the old script will only have a sizeable amount of free time for the next week or two, and after that his time will become less available. It's unfortunately a matter of circumstance that has driven us to progress this quickly.
you do not have the right to put up a server under the XE name.
The situation that we currently find ourselves in is very similar to the situation we found ourselves in when we transferred from an mIRC-based script to a squirrel-based script. Back then the server had pretty much died, and all of the management (including yourself) had essentially abandoned the server. After conversations between myself, Vinny, Tical and Venkat, it was decided that I would rewrite the server, and we would relaunch it together. All through this process you, Pront, SGB and even HeAD were absent. It was only once the server had picked up again that you came back. You remained as manager, because no one had any real reason to doubt your abilities, and because there was no obvious need for the command structure to be reshuffled. Everyone was just happy that XE was back.
This time, once again, we need to bypass the traditional management structure in order to revive the server that we know and love. It is pretty much a fact that you and George, even with the help of the other 5 active staff members (http://xe-servers.com/index.php?action=staff), will not, cannot, on your own, revive XE. You have proven it over the last year or so. But, I would genuinely love for you, George, and the others to come on board with what I've proposed. As I said in my last post, I would give you a managing admin role without question. That way you would be equal with all the other 'managers' of the server, and also accountable to them. Accountability is something this server, as a community server, desperately needs.
When it all comes down to it, we want the same thing, Aki. We want to be able to play on the best server in VC:MP history again, and we want to be able to share it with everyone else who plays this game. I am taking steps that will allow us to do that. We need to forget about the idea of 'ownership' over the XE brand, and build this thing for everyone. To make it very clear: this server is not mine, and it's not yours. It's not just for me, it's not just for you.
This is progress, this is something to get excited about, not something to argue about. Just look at the list of people (http://viceunderdogs.com/index.php?topic=6775) who have applied to be part of this, look at how many different clans they're from, how many different countries, how many different levels of experience they have with this game. It's fucking great! That's what this is about, man.
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Charley, I already mentioned that I appreciate your initiative and I welcome a real discussion on the matter. So far I have not agreed or disagreed to any of your suggestions; in fact, I think most of them are in the right direction. I have only asked for more time for the current XE team to come to a consensus on the matter and future direction of XE and I have multiple times re-emphasized my openness to a discussion on collaboration.
But for you to continue to believe that you have the right to move forward and put up a server under the XE name is truly disappointing. It shows not only that you have a fundamentally flawed understanding of how XE is managed and who has rights to XE, but also that you never wanted to have a proper discussion on the matter with the existing XE management / team to begin with. Please tell me I am wrong here.
I can only extend an olive branch so many times - please reconsider your decisions and let me know when you have halted your current activities and would like to have a genuine discussion about XE's future. I think there is a lot that we can do together and I am more open than you think about supporting your initiatives (including providing the relevant access, financial support, etc.), but we absolutely cannot move forward until you realize that creating a "new" XE while bypassing me and the current XE team is simply wrong.
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What Charley's trying to say here, is to ditch the ''ownership'' concept completely and let the server be ran by all parts of our community. Nobody's trying to demote you, nor your current managing team. A hard task, given that you've probably grown attached to the server over the years, and that's very understandable. What I'd suggest is just simply gathering the current team you have, or what remains of it, and meet up in say, irc or a chatroom with Charley and anyone he's collaborating at the present. Simply brainstorm through all the new concepts and set up a plan of action.
However, I do agree with akiharu here, it does seem very unfriendly to start working on converting the script and gathering more managing members before you've actually reached an agreement on the fate of the server, and made an actual plan of action. I do realize that Drake's time is limited, but it would definitely be better to execute this properly rather than on short notice. Plus, you just might have the chances of gathering a scripting team, so progress won't be reliant on just one member of the community.
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Okay, I am swayed by some of these points. I'll post again tomorrow after I'm home from work.
Edit:- make that tomorrow morning.
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Right, here we go.
I have paused development of the new server so that we can have a proper discussion. I admit that I was too fast going into this, it was unfair. However, I was presented by Drake with a sort of 'now or never' ultimatum, I felt as though it was a case where if we weren't to do it now, it would not get done. Consideration for the current staff team, more specifically Aki, then fell by the wayside. Having looked a little bit at the process of converting the script to 0.4, however, I can see that it isn't nearly as complicated as I had thought it would be. If it happens that Drake no longer has time, or that he decides this isn't really what he wants, then it will be possible to accomplish our ends via other means.
So let's chat, but let's not stretch this conversation out too long. I am busy, and I appreciate other people here, including Aki, are probably quite busy too. However if we focus on engaging in a concise, matter-of-fact dialogue then I think we can come to some conclusions in a timely manner.
Allow me to summarise my proposals:
- We open XE again, using a converted version of the old script. Like before, it will be a strictly TDM script, with little or no RPG elements.
- We reform the old management structure, creating a tiered system whereby the highest rank will be managing admin, the second-highest admin, and the third-highest moderator. All managing admins are accountable to each other, and no single person has ultimate control over the forum, server, or IRC channels.
- We take in a large cohort of new administration staff, opening the server up to the community again. Almost everyone should be given a chance to prove themselves somehow, and if they mess it up, then they will be removed from the staff. There is no such thing as 'too many admins', as long as the admins are good and there is a system in place to keep them in check.
- In addition to the administration roles, I will serve as a 'server coordinator', responsible for overseeing the conversion of the script, recruiting (and training where necessary) the new staff team, and providing guidance for decisions based on the values of XE and the norms established over its history. I am accountable to the managing admins, and if they decide by vote that I should no longer be in post, then they have every right to remove me. After the initial staff team is established it will be the managing admins who are ultimately responsible for recruiting new staff, not me, thus protecting the team from any long-term bias based on my choice of who to appoint.
- We renounce the idea of personal ownership over this server. The community owns and runs the server.
- We establish a constitutional rule that no one clan can possess more than 25% of the staff roles. Put another way: if VU members make up 25% of the staff team, no more VUs can be accepted until this number has dropped.
I hope that the rationale behind these proposals is obvious, however if you would like it explained for any of them I would be more than happy to oblige. I look forward to your answer, Aki.
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Hello Charley. I appreciate your efforts in reviving XE. You may not know me but I was one of the last serving managers along with krystianoo who tried to revive XE. And we were quite successful initially however in the long run all our efforts, planning went in vain because George was too busy in his life due to which he couldn't complete the scripting effectively. Honestly, I have always wished that someday you and Aki would put everything back in the past and come together not just for XE but for the sake of community. And as most of you already know (except charley), I quit XE staff along with krys after we failed to revive XE. I hope you won't mind if I gave my inputs as an ex staff member or rather a community member.
"Almost everyone should be given a chance to prove themselves somehow, and if they mess it up, then they will be removed from the staff."
Assuming most of the applications here means 75-80% apps will be accepted.
I don't think this is right. The applications should be accepted as per the election process wherein each staff member's inputs hold equal value. Furthermore, getting into the staff should be hard. Players must know that not everyone can make it to the staff just like that. They must know the value of a staff member. This will not only motivate the players to improve themselves as a whole but also make them respect the serving admins and hence the server.
Sure this will be good in short run as you guys will be able to attract a whole lot of players by this policy but in the long run it is bound to pose problems for the management in terms of extra burden of demoting, reinstating as well for the server's reputation.
"We establish a constitutional rule that no one clan can possess more than 25% of the staff roles. Put another way: if VU members make up 25% of the staff team, no more VUs can be accepted until this number has dropped."
I agree that no clan should have a sort of majority over the staff as it creates a bad mindset among common players that "this particular clan runs the server and decisions would be biased if we dared to report someone from the majority clan." But given the amount of respectable clans we have currently they may increase in the future(I'm talking about years from now) so this number will have to be eventually dropped imo. Just cautioning you at this stage
I completely agree with the rest of the points made by you. This was only the thing that concerned me.
Once again I appreciate your efforts in this whole thing. I wish the best of luck to both sides in finally reaching a consensus and start working towards rebuilding XE for the community. I don't think I will ever return to this game because of life but let me tell you I'd be the most happiest person in this world if XE is revived.
Best wishes!
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I don't have the edit option while posting as a guest. I just wanted to ask some more questions regarding the 25% clan share policy?
Are you saying 25% after excluding non-clan staff members, i.e the people without any clans? If not then how much quota do you intend to give to those people who don't have any clans?
Also, suppose I'm player X. VU already makes up 25% of the staff. And now I decided to join VU and I got accepted, then what about my staff level? Will there be an exception or my staff level will be dropped? Please answer. Thanks
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Hi Blurry, thanks for your input, it is very appreciated. Good questions.
I don't think this is right. The applications should be accepted as per the election process wherein each staff member's inputs hold equal value. Furthermore, getting into the staff should be hard. Players must know that not everyone can make it to the staff just like that. They must know the value of a staff member. This will not only motivate the players to improve themselves as a whole but also make them respect the serving admins and hence the server.
Sure this will be good in short run as you guys will be able to attract a whole lot of players by this policy but in the long run it is bound to pose problems for the management in terms of extra burden of demoting, reinstating as well for the server's reputation.
I completely agree, and that's why I mentioned that this is only how it will work initially. We draw as many players to help as possible to begin with, and give them the potential for a little ownership over the server, so that the community can be built again. It is only once we have a good team of managing admins that we can start to be more selective. Once the server is up and running again, the application process will go back to being exactly how it was in the past, with staff members giving their opinions and voting on whether an applicant should be accepted or not.
But given the amount of respectable clans we have currently they may increase in the future(I'm talking about years from now) so this number will have to be eventually dropped imo. Just cautioning you at this stage
I'm not sure exactly what you mean - how will a rise in the number of influential clans affect this? If the rule is constitutional, then it will take a majority vote from the staff to change it.
Are you saying 25% after excluding non-clan staff members, i.e the people without any clans? If not then how much quota do you intend to give to those people who don't have any clans?
I mean 25% overall, of all the staff, including clanless and clan members.
Also, suppose I'm player X. VU already makes up 25% of the staff. And now I decided to join VU and I got accepted, then what about my staff level? Will there be an exception or my staff level will be dropped? Please answer. Thanks
In cases like these, there would have to be a discussion between managing admins, VU and you, player X. It would have to be treated on a case-by-case basis. The possible solutions would be these:
- An exception gets made, and 25% becomes an aim rather than a reality.
- Remove from the staff an inactive VU, player Z, and replace him with player X, with the permission of player Z. If player Z cannot be reached, then with the permission of VU.
- Player X must decide to either keep his position in XE or join VU, but not both.
I hope I've answered all of your questions satisfactorily.
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But given the amount of respectable clans we have currently they may increase in the future(I'm talking about years from now) so this number will have to be eventually dropped imo. Just cautioning you at this stage
I'm not sure exactly what you mean - how will a rise in the number of influential clans affect this? If the rule is constitutional, then it will take a majority vote from the staff to change it.
I think what he means is that this percentage value at the moment should only be used to bring across your idea but the figure itself is not plausible. By saying 25%, you are saying that there are only 4 clans in existence that can make up staff if all staff members are apart of a clan. The clan variety is obviously wider than just 4 and so whatever figure that is to be used would have to continually express that, hence its eventual drop as time progresses in the fairness of new clans. An absolute value would have to be used instead e.g. 10 per clan or something.
My issue with it though and I see it as a continual trend for all servers, is the viewpoint that shares need to be established for fairness; let me address that this is not how fairness is issued. For if you so happen to have a clan member that is far beyond expectations to be qualified for a particular staff work, are you really going to deny him because you already have x amount of his clan buddies on board? Similarly would you recognize his ability and as such kick one of the less gifted staff members from his clan to uphold the staff share when you add in the "better" guy? What if a vast majority of members that are appointed from only one particular clan are just handsdown the best persons you've ever came acrossed, both morally and functionally? What if there's an unsure potential cream from the crop member that is in a clan that has bad reputation? Would his affiliation affect your choice? What do you really do? The system is bullshit.
The underlying problem is that you all care too much about opinions from people that you probably cant hold a sensible moral conversation with. Dont deny a capable person and dont kick the less capable but very functional person for the sake of saying "this is an unbiased staff". Instead, you guys need to do 2 very essential things:
- Hold your chest high and stand by the decisions you make in having the best staff extracted from the community. This means you value the individuals more than their associations.
- Be welcoming. When you're welcoming you will know the community a lot more than just the scope of the clan members of a ruling person(s) in charge of the server. When you're welcoming you definitely wont just full the staff of your clan buddies either
So to fully exercise this cuz the efforts so far by Charley have been welcoming of the community, dissolve the need of "a balance". The message is to everyone, you dont need a balance, you need a change of focus. Watch the individual, not the clan
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By saying 25%, you are saying that there are only 4 clans in existence that can make up staff if all staff members are apart of a clan.
I think this is a misunderstanding. What I proposed was that members of one clan can hold a maximum of 25% of staff posts, not that each clan should hold 25%. I didn't propose any limits or restrictions beyond the maximum 25%. So it could be, for instance, that the make up of the staff team looks like this: VU 25%; DnA 15%; MK 10%; UF 10%; TRC 5%; clanless 35%.
My issue with it though and I see it as a continual trend for all servers, is the viewpoint that shares need to be established for fairness; let me address that this is not how fairness is issued... The system is bullshit.
Again I think this is a misunderstanding. The rationale behind what I suggested was not one based on fairness, it was one based on the safeguarding of the server. If one clan holds a majority of power, then it puts the server at a high risk of being disrupted by issues from within that clan. Issues that have nothing to do with the server. For instance, if the clan were to split into two rival, opposing clans, like it did with ULK1 and ULK2, then it can cause absolute disaster. Equally, power relationships between members of the dominant clan stand a chance of superseding the power relationships put in place in the server's management system.
Whilst ULK ran XE it began very well, because as you said, people were selected because they knew the game, knew how to administrate properly, and were overall decent at their assigned tasks. However, as time went on, politics related to ULK, both internal and external, caused innumerable issues for the server, and ultimately contributed to its downfall. ULK made themselves integral to the effective running of the server, and while this was of benefit to begin with, it had awful consequences afterwards, and there was nothing anyone else could do about it (and believe me, I tried).
My proposal is aimed at preventing this from happening again, so that the server's existence does not rely on the cohesion of one particular group that has nothing officially to do with the server.
Of course, as with every system, there are pros and cons. And one of the big cons is that it would mean that some people who are very able and worthy cannot be a part of the staff team. The question is whether the pros of safeguarding the server outweigh the cons of a few able individuals not being able to join the staff team.
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Equality is not a consequence of Restricting and limitations.But dictating the community and it's abilities.We dont need such a system like this for the new server.
Becuase,while considering applications,this would be already something we could discuss among the staff members per application of a player.And the server will be a product of collabration.Think about it.
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As you guys wish. I am not set on the 25% rule, it was just a suggestion that I think will be of long-term benefit to the server. It is not essential, though.
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The perfect time to repost this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0UrvYV3wFE
have fun watching.
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As you guys wish. I am not set on the 25% rule, it was just a suggestion that I think will be of long-term benefit to the server. It is not essential, though.
Hello there once again. Since the practicability of the above proposed system is in question, in order to prevent the development of "biased decision" mindset among the players, I suggest the following:
We introduce an independent court system/jury system/committee that will be responsible for deciding the fate of the reports. The members of this committee can comprise either the trusted non clan people(those without any clans) OR we could allow all respectable clans to nominate 2 members each who'll be part of this committee or a combination of both (non clan people and 2-2 clan members from each clan). The committee will decide the fate of the report on the basis of majority votes after seeing the evidence and hearing from all sides. The degree or scope of power/privileges to be given to the committee members both in-game and on forums, and the requirements a clan must pass in order to nominate their member(s) in the committee + other related things, can be discussed later if we all come to an agreement on this.
There's one more thing that has constantly bothered me in the past is the lack of a perfect set of forum rules. Since we're going to start afresh this time around, I suggest we make the necessary and much needed amendments to the forum rules as well in order to keep the forums clean and friendly for all. Have a look at these- https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=4045-USHJ-3810
I feel this is the perfect set of rules for a forum. We could take inspiration from these and lay down our own set of rules.
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Rate an agree or disagree on Blurry's post above if you feel that it might work out.
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I don't quite understand, which 'reports' are you referencing Blurry?
If you are talking about reports of admin abuse, I agree with the system, and in fact it's something I had suggested but not explained in this post (http://viceunderdogs.com/index.php?topic=6740.msg75631#msg75631) - as you can see, some admins are part of the 'discipline team'. What I hadn't explained is that I thought it would be a good idea to model the management in a similar way to how we do in VU, with different circles (admin/discipline, recruitment, development).
But what I am referencing in my proposal and in the explanation above is not just admin abuse, it's pervasive systemic bias in staff-related actions, and the security of the server becoming contingent on the cohesion of one particular group, i.e. a clan. Systemic bias would influence the treatment of admin abuse reports, however it would also influence the selection of new staff, the power relations amongst staff, and the development of the server (which new features/rules/events get approved or denied). Once again, the three areas that the staff work in, which we need to bear in mind in all discussions of management: admin/discipline, recruitment, and development.
The security contingency I mention is the fear that were the server to become reliant on one group running it, then if that group splits or has problems, the server stands a high chance of also splitting or having problems. The example of this having happened in the past is ULK, and the obvious example of this potentially happening in the future is VU. As the ex-leader and a current member of VU I don't see this as a likely eventuality, however anything is possible, and I am trying to suggest a system that would protect the server from any issues that VU might have. I am also trying to protect my clan from being accused of bias/domination when the server is running, as ULK frequently was (sometimes rightly, sometimes not).
On a side note: Aki, your input would be appreciated if it were sooner rather than later. As I said previously, it would be nice if this conversation doesn't have to last too long, and we can actually start making this thing.
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Yes, I was talking about admin reports.
But what I am referencing in my proposal and in the explanation above is not just admin abuse, it's pervasive systemic bias in staff-related actions, and the security of the server becoming contingent on the cohesion of one particular group, i.e. a clan. Systemic bias would influence the treatment of admin abuse reports, however it would also influence the selection of new staff, the power relations amongst staff, and the development of the server (which new features/rules/events get approved or denied). Once again, the three areas that the staff work in, which we need to bear in mind in all discussions of management: admin/discipline, recruitment, and development.
Okay I see what you're trying to say. But there's still a lot more to discuss about the system you proposed in that post.
But before engaging into any further discussion, I would like to raise an important issue from the point of view of Current XE Staff Members. Honestly, I see some hope for a collaboration between you and aki, but the way things have gone by, I feel they have been totally disrespectful and displeasing to the current XE staff members to say the least.
No offense to anyone who's willing to help rebuild XE responsibly, but I request you to lock the apps. thread and declare all selections made as "invalid" immediately otherwise in my opinion I think there's very little chance that the talks for collaboration will ever take place. The current staff members feel completely ripped off for they have proven their worth in the past and earned their places into the staff via election system (I can assure you that not even single one of them were appointed directly by the management and on top of that they went through a evaluation under my and krys' management wherein the inactive and non caring people were totally demoted), also according to the staff members, they feel since the apps were made on VU forums it makes zero sense to them. Even though you have paused the development, there are still some people applying due to which the current staff members are not really sure about this whole thing - whether you really want a discussion or are just dictating your own terms. I assume aki will post on behalf of the XE staff here, so it is most likely that he will raise the aforementioned points.
Furthermore, I feel they must remain a part of staff in future automatically not just because of the things I stated above but also because of their enthusiasm and interest in this whole thing. It has been a year since XE went completely dysfunctional and yet they show the same amount of enthusiasm as earlier into reviving XE, that in itself is commendable.
Please think about what I said and do what's best for their interests.
Thanks
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...the point of view of Current XE Staff Members. Honestly, I see some hope for a collaboration between you and aki, but the way things have gone by, I feel they have been totally disrespectful and displeasing to the current XE staff members to say the least.
...
The current staff members feel completely ripped off for they have proven their worth in the past and earned their places into the staff via election system (I can assure you that not even single one of them were appointed directly by the management and on top of that they went through a evaluation under my and krys' management wherein the inactive and non caring people were totally demoted)
Let's be clear, the 'current active' staff we are talking about are: George, Aki, White, Nilz, Riders, Razor, Fercho, Zatch and Honor.
I trust and like almost all of these people, and as I said before:
I'd be more than happy to give Aki or anyone from the old staff team a chance,
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Any of the old staff can apply, and they will be welcomed in.
But, and there is a but, there are other factors to consider. You seem like an intelligent guy Blurry, and Krystiano is too, but I don't really know either of you that well. I've seen in the past how Krystiano can be very hot-headed, he can go crazy, and so I'm apprehensive to trust his judgement 100%. I don't know whether to trust yours either, and unless White has had a brain transplant, I'm fairly sure that I can't trust his. So I am open to collaboration and conversation, but I do have my limits. And they're not arbitrary limits related to personal preference, they're limits I impose based on what I see as a necessary challenge to the current system.
Furthermore, I feel they must remain a part of staff in future automatically not just because of the things I stated above but also because of their enthusiasm and interest in this whole thing. It has been a year since XE went completely dysfunctional and yet they show the same amount of enthusiasm as earlier into reviving XE, that in itself is commendable.
That is commendable, but the reality is, in your year of trying, neither they nor you have successfully revived XE. You may be very nice people with good intentions, but you have failed, and are continuing to fail. I say this not as an insult, but as a matter of fact.
they feel since the apps were made on VU forums it makes zero sense to them.
I would think this makes obvious sense, but let me explain why it was this way. 1) The VU forums is much more active, its exposure to the community is much higher than the XE forums these days, and so it is possible to reach out to more people. 2) If I went into the XE forum and started acting like I have, my posts would be deleted and I would be banned. I can't go into a forum where I have no administrative rights, and there is already an admin applications board, and then open a new staff application thread, can I? 3) I opened up this thread and gave people a chance to air their opinions on this matter a full 10 days before I opened up the staff applications. The reception was positive. If the 'current' staff are so active and opposed, then they have no excuse for not taking the opportunity to voice their opinions and object. I cannot be blamed for their inactivity or lack of will to engage. Again, this is not an insult, it is just a fact: the current staff are not really that active, they are not engaging in conversation.
Edit:- that last sentence is not fair, actually. Zatch, Honor and Fercho have posted, but they all seem to have appeared quite neutral - neither positive nor negative. Honor especially should be thanked for his input into this conversation. But where are the others?
but I request you to lock the apps. thread and declare all selections made as "invalid" immediately otherwise in my opinion I think there's very little chance that the talks for collaboration will ever take place.
You will notice that I haven't accepted or denied any apps since I paused development. However, I am keeping the thread open so that people who are interested can show their interest, and their apps can be decided on at a later date. There have been more people in that thread alone trying to help the server than there have been on the XE forum for months, and the more there are, the better.
Keeping that thread open is giving the community a voice, and what they're saying is that they're ready for this and that they're sick of waiting.
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Just to be clear.
Hello again. I've been reading all the posts of this thread in these days so in my opinion i agree with charley but i didn't reply because i was waiting for the last reply of some of my staff mates. I guess we finished discussing the main topic in our private section so please i'd be glad if you wait for the last reply to verify the fact.
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Edit:- that last sentence is not fair, actually. Zatch, Honor and Fercho have posted, but they all seem to have appeared quite neutral - neither positive nor negative. Honor especially should be thanked for his input into this conversation. But where are the others?
Thank you,but i was quite positive on my posts
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By the way, I'm here for everything needed. I haven't made a long post because the main points were already raised by my fellows from the staff team. However, something that came to annoy me specially (and the other members I guess) were the hasty actions taken without consent and / or without a primary discussion with us. Besides, the admin applications that if I'm not mistaken, you accepted without a group discussion about each applicant and giving random ranks without a thorough investigation of the applicant and without enough facts and background that might help to. It's all about mutual communication between the revival allies (Drake and you) and the XE existing staff team that could give their opinion.
Anyways, now that everything has been clarified and there is a huge possibility to make a equal collaboration, everything seems fine. Personally, I like almost every single suggestion that you have made to the new system, ranks, etc. For now, we're just waiting for Aki's post that has been discussed among the Staff Team. Whatever he says, is on behalf of us.
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However, something that came to annoy me specially (and the other members I guess) were the hasty actions taken without consent and / or without a primary discussion with us. Besides, the admin applications that if I'm not mistaken, you accepted without a group discussion about each applicant and giving random ranks without a thorough investigation of the applicant and without enough facts and background that might help to.
Yes, I completely understand, and I apologise. Given the lack of response to this thread in its first 10 days, I was under the impression that the XE staff had given up. I was clearly wrong about this. As for the applications that I have accepted, for each of them I have a very particular reason or set of reasons, and I'd be happy to discuss these. Part of the reason I did so without discussion, and I don't regret this entirely, is because I am interested in moving this thing along with some speed. I will have a think about how we can redress this problem, and once we have the fundamental principles about how to move forward agreed upon, suggest it. Automatically invalidating all of the accepted applications would not be constructive, in my view, but certainly we can consider each of them and come to some sort of joint understanding.
Thank you,but i was quite positive on my posts
I'm glad to hear that. I had taken your posts to be more neutrally facilitative than as supporting of either side of any arguments.
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Yes, apologies for the delay - will try to respond within 24 hours. We have been discussing internally among the current staff though. Also, I've been online on IRC all day today - will try to be online for a while tomorrow as well if anyone would like to discuss. Thanks.
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Maybe it would be best to agree about a fixed date and time for all staff members to meet on IRC. I'm sure both aki and Charley are busy people (And many of the staff members, ofc) so taking the time to go on IRC while it's just a guess if people are online isn't worthwhile.
(I personally don't really wanna get into this debate, I just like to give a suggestion that I think might benefit you all)
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Dear Charleycartoon;
This is an issue that really caught my attention, since seeing all the arguments published by some people seems pathetic and completely out of context. Honestly, most people here have not the slightest idea what the server was in his time.
To begin with, let's be honest, there's no longer an opportunity for a similar or possibly equal server like XE, this server had it's lifetime, it's era of glory and potentially, at some point in history the best server created and managed by an excellent and well distributed administration. There is currently a server which already took that place, I think we all are aware of that and if some people do not believe, unfortunately you guys are fucking morons, as simple as that.
As a past member of the administration, I'm in the position to mention several things that XE community should know. The server not only suffered losses of high level administrative people, but also suffered a massive attack of stupidity, idiots who appeared from one moment to another on the server, providing or starting dramas and the well-known bad reputation. I was ULK member and I can assure you that it wasn't all about the clan itself, if the server went down, it was because of one person, an egocentric who had the idea of keeping it all, even when he was only a moron in this game.
EC management is poor, their staff is inexperienced and the community is full of brain donors.
Interesting and funny coming from you mentioning those points, considering that those useless idiots are your friends and clearly comparable to your level of administrative incompetence.
Apart from this, the server was attacked by the modification known as "F1" of which I was part. I really have no reason to hide this fact, because it's part of my story and it's part of XE's story, one of the facts that marked the beginning and at the same time an end to this server.
>¿What does this mean? People no longer want to play on a server with such a low reputation as XE, although the current VC-MP community is infected with multifaceted idiots and asslickers. Accept it, don't put false hopes in potentially useless people.
>I'm sure that sooner or later, something similar will happen if somehow you guys manage to revive this server, the server that should stay where it is.
>The server is originally owned by ULK, as simple as that. XE keys were given from Tommis to ULK, don't expect a nice response from them, especially from a complete idiot like Pakiharu.
If you want to give people something new and exciting, I would prefer the idea to revive Sharks vs Marios; unique server and highly successful in his time. I and the people who once spent hours enjoying the game mode, with those simple but incredible mechanics will agree with me and I can ensure you it will be something that will succeed, because there isn't something similar.
That would not be CTF, LW or EC.
In first place i'm sorry for the bump here.
Oh my fucking god, is here talking the F1 Hacker about stupidity, thinking that you are able to talk about XE after all you have made to it. By the way i'm not trying to be the "asslicker" here, but you are one of the more reasons of XE falls down, AND you talking of aXXo administrative knowledge is a thing that is only done by Brain donors. the possibility of being an administrator of XE you should have a little respect here for the people that still wants to play, thanks.
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One thing I do know, is that XE can never live again if it is under the current or old management system.
True! but You may discuss with them to revive XE in a pleasant way.
Anyways it Would be great and exciting if the old XE environment comes back!
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XE will never be the same if it's not managed by ULK, please answer me, Charley or another one involved in this.
How can we be sure that players will come back again to XE?
What will happen to the active staff? Will be cleared?
Has aki given you permission to do it?
Is there a new anti-hack system to prevent F1, ramps or another .asi / every modification?
Why not Sharks vs Marios (such as Ethan said above)?
Guess twenty-five players play regularly in Grand Theft Auto European City and twenty do it in littlewhiteys, if we re-build XE, both servers will be with 5- players, or am i wrong?
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XE will never be the same if it's not managed by ULK, please answer me, Charley or another one involved in this.
How can we be sure that players will come back again to XE?
What will happen to the active staff? Will be cleared?
Has aki given you permission to do it?
Is there a new anti-hack system to prevent F1, ramps or another .asi / every modification?
Why not Sharks vs Marios (such as Ethan said above)?
Guess twenty-five players play regularly in Grand Theft Auto European City and twenty do it in littlewhiteys, if we re-build XE, both servers will be with 5- players, or am i wrong?
hello stranger who came with strange questions.
First Of all you dont need permission from aki to start XE, Tommies was the guy with XE's idea.aki is just in the management team.
Also you need to read the posts above in order to get the answer of your 2nd question, nobody is going to knock the older staff.
I believe that if XE comes back to life with its old swagger, then EC will be empty.
All I want you to read is the posts above, you will get your answers.
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Yes, apologies for the delay - will try to respond within 24 hours. We have been discussing internally among the current staff though. Also, I've been online on IRC all day today - will try to be online for a while tomorrow as well if anyone would like to discuss. Thanks.
so when will you bless us with your post?
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Thanks, Morphine - your reminder is exactly what I needed. I will post today - it's finally the weekend and I should have time to post when I get back tonight.
Unfortunately, as everyone surely understands, this is a matter that deserves to be taken seriously and not to be rushed. I have been on IRC here and there for the past few days, but I haven't seen Charley online and I haven't received any messages from anyone who'd like to discuss. I imagine everyone can understand that when RL gets busy, there's not much one can do other than being understanding of the fact that personal obligations - especially work or school - does take precedence over VC:MP affairs. Meanwhile though, I have had extensive conversations with the current XE team and I think we've come to a consensus on our view on the matter - which I will certainly be posting about tonight. I am aware that the ball has been in my court for a while so I appreciate everyone's patience.
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Thanks, Morphine - your reminder is exactly what I needed. I will post today - it's finally the weekend and I should have time to post when I get back tonight.
(https://m.popkey.co/be77b2/Y9Dxo.gif)
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/O9IvntBQsqSB2/giphy.gif)
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Firstly, Charley, I appreciate you for taking the initiative and starting a much needed conversation about the future of XE. I realize that we have had multiple disagreements in the past, but I am truly optimistic that we can work together for the betterment of XE.
Taking into account the numerous points that were raised in the thread, we (XE staff) have come up with the following list of terms. To be transparent, below is the exact list taken straight from our forums.
(1) George and I will extend management access to Charley and one additional person from the current XE team to oversee and coordinate the transition (White, Fercho, Riders, Nilz, Zatch, Honor, etc. – whoever would like to step up to do this, we can discuss among the current XE staff) – this is important to support the “new†XE with any legacy knowledge / infrastructure in place
(2) George and I will likely only continue to be involved in an advisory capacity; not in day-to-day management of the server, but to participate in only the most critical decisions regarding the direction of XE and to help with this new transition
(3) If Charley would like to suggest additional key management-ish additions to the staff, i.e. scripter, web admin, etc., this is something we can discuss
(4) “New†XE will continue to use current XE forums and any infrastructure in place (as discussed earlier)
(5) XE staff members who are currently active will continue to hold their positions (they should not have to re-apply)
(6) Inactive XE staff members should be removed from the staff immediately
(7) Admin applications will be opened on XE forums (makes 0 sense for them to be on VU clan forums, if anything they would be on VC:MP forums)
We believe the above is a robust framework that we can begin with, as we collaborate going forward. Also, hopefully you can see that we have intentionally kept the above points to a minimum and made them as simple as we can, as we believe that any new changes to XE should be discussed together in the spirit of collaboration rather than negotiation.
I would also like to highlight a few additional points, the first and third coming collectively from the staff:
(1) The 25% system would be great in an ideal world, but is not practical as Gangstaras was first to point out. We need to be forward thinking rather than stubbornly focused on remedying past failures. Also, simplifying the reason for XE’s drop in player count to ULK politics is silly – there are a lot of reasons why XE became less popular, from the F1 mods to the sheer fact that XE management became inactive. Based on all these years running XE, I believe and many would agree that the best way to recruit staff members is through a democratic process of XE staff applications. Decisions should not be made by just you or me or anyone else, but based on public opinion (everyone’s posts and votes) and voting by the staff.
(2) In your OP, you provide a little history of XE. I hope we can both agree that it is useless to debate the history of XE and consider the following as simply my response to your post and I would like to leave it at precisely that. If you would like to get in a public discussion about it, I am sure that both of us can write a few essays on the topic, but I believe that would not be productive to our discussion and we would only be going backwards. For the record, however, I must state that there are several holes in your version of events. There is just one that I need to point out, which was that I was managing XE before SGB even came back to VC:MP and generously took over server hosting. Also, I am the only person to this day who has had continuous conversations with Tommis over the years – if you insist (and I would rather you not) I will drag Tommis over here to validate my role in relation to XE.
(3) Related to the above point, you must recognize that you have no right to move forward with XE without the permission of me and the current XE staff. Now, we are more than happy to invite you to our management team and lead XE in its next phase, but as a matter of principle, this point must be acknowledged.
Please note that everything I have mentioned above is the result of numerous discussions between the current XE team. We have a 10-page thread on the matter and countless discussions between individual members on IRC and other avenues of communication. This is our collective stance on the matter and I say this because we sincerely hope that your next post is your acknowledgement of everything in this post and your intention to move forward and join the XE team as a part of its management. Again, we have tried our best to keep things simple here – the above is only a framework for us to agree on first so that we can discuss any great ideas you have for XE as part of the same team.
Finally, I would like to point out that I had a great discussion with Drake, and so has many others from the XE staff. As you and many members of the community have suggested, we believe that Drake will be an incredibly important addition to the XE team. Drake already has access to XE’s scripts and will be making progress on remaking the script (especially considering the time sensitivities that you had mentioned in your prior posts). He currently has XE dev status, but once you join, I think we can start with both you and Drake as additions to the overall management team with full access to the website, server, IRC, etc.
Thanks for reading and we look forward to working with you.
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Eesh. I don't view your reply as satisfactory. I think your lack of apology after not replying for 11 days is rude, I think you've ignored most of what myself and others put forward in this thread, and I think that bringing Drake in to your current team without discussing it publicly here is a sly, cynical move. I paused development so that we could discuss this, and then you started it again but under your command, without discussing it here. That kind of move makes me sick, it's utterly disrespectful and shows that you had undisclosed intentions behind demanding that we pause development.
I don't know if I can be fucked with replying properly, because what you've posted does not contribute to a dialogue, it is an attempt to dictate the direction of this without acknowledging some of the fundamental points that have been made in the last few pages. I don't wish to sit here and repeat myself, repeat what I and others have already written.
Congratulations Aki, you may have pissed me off enough that I no longer wish to do this.
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Eesh. I don't view your reply as satisfactory. I think your lack of apology after not replying for 11 days is rude, I think you've ignored most of what myself and others put forward in this thread, and I think that bringing Drake in to your current team without discussing it publicly here is a sly, cynical move. I paused development so that we could discuss this, and then you started it again but under your command, without discussing it here. That kind of move makes me sick, it's utterly disrespectful and shows that you had undisclosed intentions behind demanding that we pause development.
I don't know if I can be fucked with replying properly, because what you've posted does not contribute to a dialogue, it is an attempt to dictate the direction of this without acknowledging some of the fundamental points that have been made in the last few pages. I don't wish to sit here and repeat myself, repeat what I and others have already written.
Congratulations Aki, you may have pissed me off enough that I no longer wish to do this.
Umm, not the response that I was expecting. Believe there is a misunderstanding here. Could you please re-read my post, think about it for a day, then respond? I thought my post was very reasonable, as it is the product of multiple days (or weeks) of collective thought and discussion among the XE staff. I actually took the time to write a post that I thought you would appreciate and agree with. Please do me a favor here and try to digest what I have posted before viewing everything from the wrong angle.
Also, I don't know if you have skipping over my posts, but I have been intermittently apologizing for the delays throughout this thread - in fact, I think my "apologies for delays" make up half the posts here.
Finally, I think it makes complete sense for the current XE team to speak with and get to know Drake. If you re-read my last paragraph, he has not been officially added to the team; we were hoping that we could do that when you would join. I really only even included the last paragraph to show that we agree with and welcome your idea to add Drake to the scripting team.
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If you re-read my last paragraph, he has not been officially added to the team
Drake already has access to XE’s scripts and will be making progress on remaking the script
...
He currently has XE dev status
Que?
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For the record, Drake reached out to me, not the other way around. XE dev is a placeholder status on the forum - he does not have XE staff or management access yet. All he has access to is a copy of the script (given to him yesterday) so he can begin familiarizing himself with it, especially given the urgency. George and I have both made it clear to Drake that we will not be granting him official staff / management access until we have finalized our discussion with you. Please feel free to ask Drake yourself.
Again, I strongly suggest that you re-read my post and take some time to think about what I have posted.
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Well if I may add, perhaps there is some misunderstanding, as such, I'll express my understanding of things and maybe you guys can clarify.
From what I got from aki's post is that:
Charley will be granted management position along with a current XE staff member of your admin's list alongside him to coordinate the transition --- a step in the right direction to me
George and aki will dictate what is good and what is bad in the best interest of XE's development to prevent any form of ill-fates in serious management situations --- an understandable role
The XE forums currently as is will now become a scaffold for molding the long & overdue renovations needed --- a step in the right direction to me
All inactive members are kicked immediately but the current staff remains in place --- no problem to me; personally I never saw why they felt threatened. Though I question what is being done behind the scenes to contribute as "activity" to a dead server, if XE deems them honestly active then not one of the active members should be kicked, it's only fair after all
All the proposed admins by Charley must go through XE --- understandable but I think something has been off here from day one. As someone who "applied" to Charley's admin setup, I never expected to walk in as an admin into XE just like that, XE's admin application board has a nice reputation (at least how I remember it back in 2010), a walk in was definitely impossible for those who applied based on such thoughts. The way I viewed it from the get-go was that it was a recommendation of whom Charley sees very fit for the role he has given each individual. With Charley to supposedly become manager, this list of "recommendations" comes along with him and would be discussed per application. So none of that VU forums XE has legal rights bullshit
That's my understanding of things, and if something is misunderstood on my part, please clarify but this would be how I think it ought to be
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Well if I may add, perhaps there is some misunderstanding, as such, I'll express my understanding of things and maybe you guys can clarify.
From what I got from aki's post is that:
Charley will be granted management position along with a current XE staff member of your admin's list alongside him to coordinate the transition --- a step in the right direction to me
George and aki will dictate what is good and what is bad in the best interest of XE's development to prevent any form of ill-fates in serious management situations --- an understandable role
The XE forums currently as is will now become a scaffold for molding the long & overdue renovations needed --- a step in the right direction to me
All inactive members are kicked immediately but the current staff remains in place --- no problem to me; personally I never saw why they felt threatened. Though I question what is being done behind the scenes to contribute as "activity" to a dead server, if XE deems them honestly active then not one of the active members should be kicked, it's only fair after all
All the proposed admins by Charley must go through XE --- understandable but I think something has been off here from day one. As someone who "applied" to Charley's admin setup, I never expected to walk in as an admin into XE just like that, XE's admin application board has a nice reputation (at least how I remember it back in 2010), a walk in was definitely impossible for those who applied based on such thoughts. The way I viewed it from the get-go was that it was a recommendation of whom Charley sees very fit for the role he has given each individual. With Charley to supposedly become manager, this list of "recommendations" comes along with him and would be discussed per application. So none of that VU forums XE has legal rights bullshit
That's my understanding of things, and if something is misunderstood on my part, please clarify but this then would be how I think it ought to be
Gangstaras, your understanding is exactly correct.
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Charley in my opinion you should talk with aki in irc, he's almost ever connected.
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Firstly,this post is not an insult to you.But for something I personally try to understand.
Just interesting how you came up here Charley.You discussed alot here for anything related to XE.You asked sometimes and got your replies respectfully.So the discussion went on
So how come you never wanted to ask about this case for much details under a mature post?We have been in here friendly with no doubt to make sure both you and us have no question marks in our minds before making a collabration.
I just have to ask even if it's damn risky to do.Because everything should be asked here before an healthy agreement:Is there anything else that you didnt expect to see?There is no obvious reason to be that strict.As I said,its not an insult.
Not only you running out of wishing,But people around here,Drake and we are getting uncomfortable by hearing those kind of negative and rude posts.
Still,we are looking forward to being able to work with you.Im ignoring the last post you've sent.Make sure you have a reasonable explaination for the decision in the very end of it.
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Okay, here's my response, but I won't repeat it (numbers not related to the numbers on Aki's post).
1) At the very core of what I suggested was that the old management structure, or 'legacy infrastructure' as you've put it, Aki, should be abandoned. Ownership over XE, including the forums, the server and the brand should be transferred to the community. No more 'advisors', 'managers', 'head admins', levels 3, 5, 6, 7 etc. No more behind-closed-doors decisions, and no one, single person who has ultimate control over the whole thing simply by virtue of their hosting and having administrative control over the forum. What XE needs is a balanced, fluid system that can hold its members to account, and not be dictated by any one member of staff.
What you have offered me is a place in the current overly hierarchical system wherein you remain unaccountable and in ultimate control. Oh, and I can bring along a few friends. It completely disregards the whole thrust of what I have put forward.
2) 'Drake came to me first', that's like saying 'yeah, well he started it!'. As an apparently responsible party to this issue, you should have suggested he wait, and to see how the discussion here developed, just as I did. You exercised a double standard, demanding that I wait for you, but then not waiting for me. It is utterly astounding how you use the argument of 'urgency' in this case, when this is something that you have been speaking against since you first posted here, and you have taken 11 days to give one contribution to our so-called 'conversation'.
3) If you had listed these terms of yours soon after I agreed to pause development for you, it would have been a good first step in negotiation. Instead, you waited this long and posted a list of proposals that, in my opinion, are self-evidently problematic. I would have liked to work through the problems with you, but honestly, if it's taken you this long to post these, and they're in the form they are, then I don't think I have the patience. If I had just ignored you and rolled with my original plans, I could have XE open and running right now. I've taken a look at the process of converting the script, it would take no more than 6 hours. I could have opened up a new forum, had a bunch of new staff, and we would all be playing XE right now. I put this all on pause after realising that such an action would be disrespectful, that I should engage in conversation with you and the 'current' XE staff. But this 'conversation' has driven me to my wit's end, dude. This isn't fun anymore, it's just a slow, boring, frustrating mess.
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Charley, could you elaborate the head of the leadership structure that you suggested?
My understanding is that there is always a de facto owner of every community. That is the person who pays for stuff and has the root access to the host. How do you plan to dissolve this position?
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1) At the very core of what I suggested was that the old management structure, or 'legacy infrastructure' as you've put it, Aki, should be abandoned. Ownership over XE, including the forums, the server and the brand should be transferred to the community. No more 'advisors', 'managers', 'head admins', levels 3, 5, 6, 7 etc. No more behind-closed-doors decisions, and no one, single person who has ultimate control over the whole thing simply by virtue of their hosting and having administrative control over the forum. What XE needs is a balanced, fluid system that can hold its members to account, and not be dictated by any one member of staff.
I totally disagree about this point and I have told you the same while we were discussing in IRC too.
What do you exactly mean by 'transferring to the community'? Whatever the case, there is always one person to do all these stuffs.
No more ranks? You exactly said, 'Server Coordinator', 'Managing Admins', 'Admins' and 'Moderators'. Aren't these ranks?
I believe that making decisions privately is not very appropriate but that's how it works out everytime, everywhere.
As you are saying, 'single person who has ultimate control', there is no one having ultimate control actually. There are 4 ranks currently, 'Developing Managers', 'Managers', 'Admins' and 'Moderators', but Developing Managers and Managers have just one single difference and that is being involved in the development of the server, that's really it. Both are almost same ranks. Nobody is having ultimate control over the system, as you said, if the staff decides to remove someone, it would be done, either me, aki or you.
If you think that aki having control over hosting and forums would have the ultimate control, that isn't the case, if the staff decides he should be removed but he having control over the server wouldn't let that happen, the whole staff should just abandon him and start everything new, there is always an option.
I believe that you want to give everyone a chance in the staff but you better know that all people want is 'higher ranks' and that's it. If you think you would give a chance to people who haven't even contributed for the server, how can we trust them to contribute later on?
I said already and I would say again, this isn't the best option.
What you have offered me is a place in the current overly hierarchical system wherein you remain unaccountable and in ultimate control. Oh, and I can bring along a few friends. It completely disregards the whole thrust of what I have put forward.
I believe it looks as if aki has ultimate control but trust me, you are wrong. I have already said that aki doesn't have the ultimate control just because he is involved in hosting stuffs. You and I have been offered to be as 'Developing Manager', the same position as aki which doesn't mean that 'Developing Managers' are superior than 'Managers', if that's what you mean.
2) 'Drake came to me first', that's like saying 'yeah, well he started it!'. As an apparently responsible party to this issue, you should have suggested he wait, and to see how the discussion here developed, just as I did. You exercised a double standard, demanding that I wait for you, but then not waiting for me. It is utterly astounding how you use the argument of 'urgency' in this case, when this is something that you have been speaking against since you first posted here, and you have taken 11 days to give one contribution to our so-called 'conversation'.
I just wanted to fast up the process, because I have said already, I would have less time after my school reopens and I see that's what is going to happen. But yes, I was the one to PM aki about my situation and he isn't to be blamed for it, please. I thought that you(Charley) wouldn't mind about this, but I guess I was wrong. If you remember, I asked you to join IRC as I wanted to discuss about this but you said you were busy and I wasn't able to tell you everything about this with just a forum PM.
Please, don't think aki is upto something else, because that's not the case at all. He really wants to collaborate with you and me and I trust him when he says that he works the whole day and even on weekends which obviously would take sometime to reply here. Even you said you are busy the whole day working and just get sometime during night.
3) If you had listed these terms of yours soon after I agreed to pause development for you, it would have been a good first step in negotiation. Instead, you waited this long and posted a list of proposals that, in my opinion, are self-evidently problematic. I would have liked to work through the problems with you, but honestly, if it's taken you this long to post these, and they're in the form they are, then I don't think I have the patience. If I had just ignored you and rolled with my original plans, I could have XE open and running right now. I've taken a look at the process of converting the script, it would take no more than 6 hours. I could have opened up a new forum, had a bunch of new staff, and we would all be playing XE right now. I put this all on pause after realising that such an action would be disrespectful, that I should engage in conversation with you and the 'current' XE staff. But this 'conversation' has driven me to my wit's end, dude. This isn't fun anymore, it's just a slow, boring, frustrating mess.
As I said, believe him when he says that he is busy IRL, just more than you.
Lastly, Charley please don't get pissed off, let's just proceed already dude. It's already been a while since this discussion started and don't forget, this is just a game.
That's all I wanted to say, and I think we really should have a live discussion about this matter in the IRC, things will get alot easier to understand. I would really suggest Charley and aki to have a live conversation about this in IRC and take it as a request from my side.
Thank you.
EDIT: As per Charley wants me to stop the development of the script, I have stopped it until this discussion comes to an agreement.
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Charley, could you elaborate the head of the leadership structure that you suggested?
My understanding is that there is always a de facto owner of every community. That is the person who pays for stuff and has the root access to the host. How do you plan to dissolve this position?
This
The way how I registered what Charley wants reminded me of how Open Source software works. The community literally builds and contributes to the software's code, design, almost everything and makes it better. But there still is and have to be some executive body behind it all that accepts/denies what's coming in so its hard for me to picture
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By the way,One thing needs to be adressed
I think your lack of apology after not replying for 11 days is rude, I think you've ignored most of what myself and others put forward in this thread
But
Actually I wasn't aware that Aki is still active, I thought he had essentially abandoned VC:MP and XE.
...
This does change things
So you were going to do things in your way without asking any of us(xe staff).Untill the point you said this,you didnt mind aki responding to this.I think this is quite obvious what Im pointing out here.
And I think only one point summerize why you dont wish to do it:Things didnt process as you expected.So no.Inputs of people around here has no relation to aki.He has to wait to say on behalf of us.
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After your latest post I have obtained a different concept about your general point about reviving XE, and to be frank I'm pretty disappointed to see your reaction to the post that you "demanded" in such a hurry. Basically we (xe existing staff) actually want to collaborate with you, or don't you realize that we literally offered to give you and Drake full access? Same position that Akiharu and George hold.
Moreover, in aki's post people from our xe current team and so some of your applicants agreed. In fact, both sides inclined to agree at most with our suggestions including Drake. Now, the community you're talking of in your "proposed system" has agreed, so I do not understand what is your goal now, it seems now that you want to set up your own system, your own rules and your own decisions. You're the one who speaks of democracy, and with your opinions you show a contradictory image about yourself.
This sounds like total control by one person to me, a fact you can't hide just by calling yourself "server coordinator."
Still we hope you to think clear, accurate and meaningful ideas to make a succesful collaboration.
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what a drag
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aaaaaaand rip xe again
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Make two XE'S
XE ULK
XE VU
:v
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someone lock the topic already, its fucking useless
none from the XE staff wants XE to be back, What I see is XE's staff trying to Stop anyone making XE
Thanks and have a great day
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Charley, when you get a chance, please respond to points raised by aXXo, Drake, Gangstaras, Honor and Fercho. They have covered everything that I wanted to say.
Charley, could you elaborate the head of the leadership structure that you suggested?
My understanding is that there is always a de facto owner of every community. That is the person who pays for stuff and has the root access to the host. How do you plan to dissolve this position?
1) At the very core of what I suggested was that the old management structure, or 'legacy infrastructure' as you've put it, Aki, should be abandoned. Ownership over XE, including the forums, the server and the brand should be transferred to the community. No more 'advisors', 'managers', 'head admins', levels 3, 5, 6, 7 etc. No more behind-closed-doors decisions, and no one, single person who has ultimate control over the whole thing simply by virtue of their hosting and having administrative control over the forum. What XE needs is a balanced, fluid system that can hold its members to account, and not be dictated by any one member of staff.
I totally disagree about this point and I have told you the same while we were discussing in IRC too.
What do you exactly mean by 'transferring to the community'? Whatever the case, there is always one person to do all these stuffs.
No more ranks? You exactly said, 'Server Coordinator', 'Managing Admins', 'Admins' and 'Moderators'. Aren't these ranks?
I believe that making decisions privately is not very appropriate but that's how it works out everytime, everywhere.
As you are saying, 'single person who has ultimate control', there is no one having ultimate control actually. There are 4 ranks currently, 'Developing Managers', 'Managers', 'Admins' and 'Moderators', but Developing Managers and Managers have just one single difference and that is being involved in the development of the server, that's really it. Both are almost same ranks. Nobody is having ultimate control over the system, as you said, if the staff decides to remove someone, it would be done, either me, aki or you.
If you think that aki having control over hosting and forums would have the ultimate control, that isn't the case, if the staff decides he should be removed but he having control over the server wouldn't let that happen, the whole staff should just abandon him and start everything new, there is always an option.
I believe that you want to give everyone a chance in the staff but you better know that all people want is 'higher ranks' and that's it. If you think you would give a chance to people who haven't even contributed for the server, how can we trust them to contribute later on?
I said already and I would say again, this isn't the best option.
What you have offered me is a place in the current overly hierarchical system wherein you remain unaccountable and in ultimate control. Oh, and I can bring along a few friends. It completely disregards the whole thrust of what I have put forward.
I believe it looks as if aki has ultimate control but trust me, you are wrong. I have already said that aki doesn't have the ultimate control just because he is involved in hosting stuffs. You and I have been offered to be as 'Developing Manager', the same position as aki which doesn't mean that 'Developing Managers' are superior than 'Managers', if that's what you mean.
2) 'Drake came to me first', that's like saying 'yeah, well he started it!'. As an apparently responsible party to this issue, you should have suggested he wait, and to see how the discussion here developed, just as I did. You exercised a double standard, demanding that I wait for you, but then not waiting for me. It is utterly astounding how you use the argument of 'urgency' in this case, when this is something that you have been speaking against since you first posted here, and you have taken 11 days to give one contribution to our so-called 'conversation'.
I just wanted to fast up the process, because I have said already, I would have less time after my school reopens and I see that's what is going to happen. But yes, I was the one to PM aki about my situation and he isn't to be blamed for it, please. I thought that you(Charley) wouldn't mind about this, but I guess I was wrong. If you remember, I asked you to join IRC as I wanted to discuss about this but you said you were busy and I wasn't able to tell you everything about this with just a forum PM.
Please, don't think aki is upto something else, because that's not the case at all. He really wants to collaborate with you and me and I trust him when he says that he works the whole day and even on weekends which obviously would take sometime to reply here. Even you said you are busy the whole day working and just get sometime during night.
3) If you had listed these terms of yours soon after I agreed to pause development for you, it would have been a good first step in negotiation. Instead, you waited this long and posted a list of proposals that, in my opinion, are self-evidently problematic. I would have liked to work through the problems with you, but honestly, if it's taken you this long to post these, and they're in the form they are, then I don't think I have the patience. If I had just ignored you and rolled with my original plans, I could have XE open and running right now. I've taken a look at the process of converting the script, it would take no more than 6 hours. I could have opened up a new forum, had a bunch of new staff, and we would all be playing XE right now. I put this all on pause after realising that such an action would be disrespectful, that I should engage in conversation with you and the 'current' XE staff. But this 'conversation' has driven me to my wit's end, dude. This isn't fun anymore, it's just a slow, boring, frustrating mess.
As I said, believe him when he says that he is busy IRL, just more than you.
Lastly, Charley please don't get pissed off, let's just proceed already dude. It's already been a while since this discussion started and don't forget, this is just a game.
That's all I wanted to say, and I think we really should have a live discussion about this matter in the IRC, things will get alot easier to understand. I would really suggest Charley and aki to have a live conversation about this in IRC and take it as a request from my side.
Thank you.
EDIT: As per Charley wants me to stop the development of the script, I have stopped it until this discussion comes to an agreement.
Charley, could you elaborate the head of the leadership structure that you suggested?
My understanding is that there is always a de facto owner of every community. That is the person who pays for stuff and has the root access to the host. How do you plan to dissolve this position?
This
The way how I registered what Charley wants reminded me of how Open Source software works. The community literally builds and contributes to the software's code, design, almost everything and makes it better. But there still is and have to be some executive body behind it all that accepts/denies what's coming in so its hard for me to picture
By the way,One thing needs to be adressed
I think your lack of apology after not replying for 11 days is rude, I think you've ignored most of what myself and others put forward in this thread
But
Actually I wasn't aware that Aki is still active, I thought he had essentially abandoned VC:MP and XE.
...
This does change things
So you were going to do things in your way without asking any of us(xe staff).Untill the point you said this,you didnt mind aki responding to this.I think this is quite obvious what Im pointing out here.
And I think only one point summerize why you dont wish to do it:Things didnt process as you expected.So no.Inputs of people around here has no relation to aki.He has to wait to say on behalf of us.
After your latest post I have obtained a different concept about your general point about reviving XE, and to be frank I'm pretty disappointed to see your reaction to the post that you "demanded" in such a hurry. Basically we (xe existing staff) actually want to collaborate with you, or don't you realize that we literally offered to give you and Drake full access? Same position that Akiharu and George hold.
Moreover, in aki's post people from our xe current team and so some of your applicants agreed. In fact, both sides inclined to agree at most with our suggestions including Drake. Now, the community you're talking of in your "proposed system" has agreed, so I do not understand what is your goal now, it seems now that you want to set up your own system, your own rules and your own decisions. You're the one who speaks of democracy, and with your opinions you show a contradictory image about yourself.
This sounds like total control by one person to me, a fact you can't hide just by calling yourself "server coordinator."
Still we hope you to think clear, accurate and meaningful ideas to make a succesful collaboration.
To summarize, and if you read my post again, the XE team is basically offering you and Drake full management access. I will repeat it again, full management access. Really not sure what more we can offer beyond this. Again, please respond to the posts above, as they cover everything that I would like to discuss at this stage.
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Kinda hoping this gets ditched as it won't get anywhere apparently.
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fuck it, morphine and I will just bring back Vice Legends instead
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fuck it, morphine and I will just bring back Vice Legends instead
Marcell has a big dick?
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Daymmmm this shit has gone crazy
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Marcell has a big dick?
That server, It's content, Marcell and Marcell's big dick are a property of Argonath RPG © All Rights Reserved, and not affiliated with ViceLegends.
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fuck it, morphine and I will just bring back Vice Legends instead
Marcell has a big dick?
Argonath test server by yours truly mapper team.
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VC:MP Drama 2016 go eat some kebab and accept or deny the offer ez pz O0 O0 O0
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It seems that I have communicated badly in this thread - I haven't explained my thoughts clearly enough, and that has led to a lot of misunderstanding.
I apologise for offending anyone, but my intentions were good. I came into this under the impression that the current XE staff were 1) essentially non-existent and 2) had failed in keeping the server alive. I can see that point 1 was misjudged, although all evidence points towards 2 still being true (despite the other causes of the server dying, if they were so great then there would be no alternative servers alive today). My solutions to point 2 were designed to challenge the system that I perceive to have led to the failure of the server, not to challenge any of the individuals who made up/make up that system. I did not wish to upset or betray anyone here.
I could answer all of the questions posed in the above posts, and I do feel that I have good answers for all of them. However, one thing has become clear to me, and that's that (history aside) Aki and I have different methods of communicating and decision-making, and that a collaboration between the two of us would be very difficult. This is not his fault, and it's not my fault, we just operate differently.
Like I said at the end of my last post, this isn't fun anymore. I didn't wish for this to cause drama, nor do I want to prolong the drama now that it has erupted. So I'm not gonna pursue this.
I would love XE to open again, and if the current XE staff with the help of Drake can do that, then I would be thrilled.
For now I'll stick to playing on EC which, despite not being as good as XE, is still a pretty good server.
Good luck guys, I genuinely hope you can make this work :)
P.s. Yes to Vice Legends :laugh:
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ok now bring back XE.
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>go on xe
>notice it's still dead
Great work, you managed to kill the only chance to revive XE by holding onto what little power you had left in that community you stupid fucks. Wish Charley just went ahead and started this.
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DICKS OUT FOR XE
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XE already was dead, so in fact it was just a copy of EC (alive alternative of XE) with old brand for community attraction. Let dead servers stay in the past.
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@vito you can say the same thing like this:
Ec is a copy of old XE and since xe died after 0.4 was out.
After some time, xe was made again and now we call it a copy of EC which is already a copy of XE
Xe copy = ec
Ec copy= xe
??????????
What is the origin of these copies ????
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The point is:
Who cares about who copied who, this is a game there is no need to make dramas.
P.S since the topic is old i think it can be locked.
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When one species die next one will take that niche. After old XE new XE is EC. Nowdays XE is a name from the past. Just a name in official tab of master list. If one really wants to make new XE one needs to kill EC before. Because it is one niche (same gamemode for players). All actual community who likes XE style of game is already playing in EC. Origin of these copies (and how it named) is absolutely not important for players. If you check (new) XE management's replies here you can see - they are talking about how to calling ranks of server's staff instead about players and gameplay.
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If you check (new) XE management's replies here you can see - they are talking about how to calling ranks of server's staff instead about players and gameplay.
With me being apart of both XE and EC management I can tell you this, XE is an uptight environment when it comes to change. Conversations and suggestions do exist, and I mean a lot of them and in general they care about players and gameplay, but the problem is every single thing feels hindered. It's like you have to do some serious convincing to get the heads to approve management to approve staff to carry out changes. Staff and management can discuss great ideas that everyone likes but it doesn't mean shit if the head doesn't even acknowledge the suggestion much less approve it. Your suggestion just becomes another waste of space and nothing changes.
With EC, even if the suggestion is shit and people disapprove, from head to management to moderator, everyone engages and honestly that consideration alone makes you want to provide, maybe it wasn't the best suggestion before but you want to return to make a better one. It's a much more receptive environment that comes off a lot more friendly and catering.
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At least nobody managed to copy EA yet. :)
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At least nobody managed to copy EA yet. :)
Why would you copy a server which will crash after every 10 mins ?
Sori castagna but you yourself know the truth :P
Talking about the old EA, now that was an asskicking server.
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At least nobody managed to copy EA yet. :)
Why would you copy a server which will crash after every 10 mins ?
Sori castagna but you yourself know the truth :P
Talking about the old EA, now that was an asskicking server.
Aw Shawn, straight into my heart. We are an endangered specie then, we would better keep the <10 minutes crashes for EA v2.0.
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No hard feelings mate
And for EA 3.0
Count me in as a player :P
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When one species die next one will take that niche. After old XE new XE is EC. Nowdays XE is a name from the past. Just a name in official tab of master list. If one really wants to make new XE one needs to kill EC before. Because it is one niche (same gamemode for players). All actual community who likes XE style of game is already playing in EC. Origin of these copies (and how it named) is absolutely not important for players. If you check (new) XE management's replies here you can see - they are talking about how to calling ranks of server's staff instead about players and gameplay.
This is too simplistic an analysis. There have been plenty of servers that look, at face-value, just like XE or EC, but have not succeeded.
GangtaRas's comment is more insightful. One of the main causes of XE's success in 2008 was its accessibility to the community, not just in terms of gameplay, but crucially in terms of participating in the crafting of the server itself. This is what I hoped to re-establish with my suggestions for the new XE model in this thread, and I believe they would have worked. Just look at how many people applied to be admin in my 'admin applications' thread compared to how many applied on the XE forum. Unfortunately the current XE management, though good-hearted and well-meaning, do not understand the dynamics of community participation in VC:MP, and refuse to adapt or become open to new methods of doing things.
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@up
lold
there are facts and there are opinions
fact is that nowadays any server that tries to be a competitor of ec has a close to 0% chance of success because they offer nothing new or they offer the same things (slightly altered) as ec does
iirc your plan was to remake xe's script in 0.4 (which we did as well) which would result in the same situation happening as it did last time; players on release, empty afterwards
in your version and our current version there is nothing that can attract players to xe, make them leave ec and come to xe
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There have been plenty of servers that look, at face-value, just like XE or EC, but have not succeeded.
of course they didn't succeed, maybe i'll elaborate a bit
when xe died in 2014/15 ec appeared and players joined it because it was just like xe albeit with some minor script changes, then as the generation of players changed, new ones arrived (like md clan) they saw players on ec and played there and don't move to other DM servers because there is no motivation for them to do so
all i can say is that publicly it might appear to you that we are doing nothing regarding xe's 0 playercount however in private we are discussing ideas, ways to revive the server and one feature we came up with is already being finished
of course, the chances for success are low however we can try as much as we want to
and how did you expect your accept-all in admin applications work anyway
did you really think that would increase the playercount because staff members would join the game on a daily basis
i dont think so
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all i can say is that publicly it might appear to you that we are doing nothing regarding xe's 0 playercount however in private we are discussing ideas,
This is exactly the problem we're talking about :)
Core members of the community have no reason to go to XE because they have no sense of ownership over it or participation in its processes. What I suggested was handing ownership back to the community, like it was in 2008. Part of that was to grow a large accepting, trusting, passionate and participative staff team that could both comprise and steer the community.
Regarding 'accept-all' admin applications, it is from my experience that I know it is the best way to grow a community in this mod. Give everyone a chance, and if people fuck up, then and only then drop them. It is how HeAD built XE and ULK in 2008, it was how VU was built in 2009, it was how Tical, Sephiroth and I revived XE in 2010, and it's how VU has continued to be the most stable, largest and most principled community groups for the last six years.
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Core members of the community have no reason to go to XE because they have no sense of ownership over it or participation in its processes. What I suggested was handing ownership back to the community, like it was in 2008. Part of that was to grow a large accepting, trusting, passionate and participative staff team that could both comprise and steer the community.
and do they have a sense of ownership in EC? nope
they don't go to XE because they have no reason for doing so, all their 'work' in EC would be lost then and for what, the same thing as EC is in the long run?
what do you want XE to do in it's current state? nobody posts in the suggestion board because nobody in the community cares about XE when they have EC, the way i see it is that XE has to make itself matter in the 'server market' and then we could implement your 'sense of ownership' ideas in it (which you should elaborate on because i have no clue what do you mean, if the server would have playercount on a daily basis then it's obvious we would ask players before implementing a change if that's what you mean lol)
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This is too simplistic an analysis.
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Just look at how many people applied to be admin in my 'admin applications' thread compared to how many applied on the XE forum.
I just leave this discussion.
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Gotta admit it you guys are brilliant in bringing dead things to breathing.
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and do they have a sense of ownership in EC? nope
Yes.
what do you want XE to do in it's current state?
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'sense of ownership' ideas in it (which you should elaborate on because i have no clue what do you mean, if the server would have playercount on a daily basis then it's obvious we would ask players before implementing a change if that's what you mean lol)
I've already written at length about this, in this thread. XE ought to have been recreated as: democratic, open, adaptable and values-led. I won't elaborate on how this should have been done, because as I said, I've already written about it.
I just want to note that what I've said isn't intended to be an attack on you and the other managers personally, Krys. I think you're good people, just not good managers.
I just leave this discussion.
My saying that was supposed to be indicative of the clear interest in an open, community-led revival of XE among a decent number of players, in contradiction to your 'niche' analysis, and to point out the lack of community support for the elitist model that the current XE management have chosen to perpetuate.
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and do they have a sense of ownership in EC? nope
What do you mean by that? Human is the one and only developer/owner of EC, Mashreq is current scripter.
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and do they have a sense of ownership in EC? nope
What do you mean by that? Human is the one and only developer/owner of EC, Mashreq is current scripter.
Nah not like that. What it means is whether or not the community has a direct impact on what goes on with the server's development, whether its the developers that listen to the players or if its the players that have to listen to the developers.
- When the developers listen the players, the developers make what the community wants, the server is based off what the community is asking for (in the idealistic sense).
- When its the players that have to listen to the developers, that means that the developers make what they want and whether you the player enjoy it or not, that's what you're getting so deal with it (also in the idealistic sense).
The argument now behind that is that XE leans to the "players have to listen to developers" side and EC leans to the "developers listen to the players" side