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Author Topic: XE  (Read 34624 times)

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ferrari32

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Re: XE
« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2016, 08:00:29 pm »
What Charley's trying to say here, is to ditch the ''ownership'' concept completely and let the server be ran by all parts of our community. Nobody's trying to demote you, nor your current managing team. A hard task, given that you've probably grown attached to the server over the years, and that's very understandable. What I'd suggest is just simply gathering the current team you have, or what remains of it, and meet up in say, irc or a chatroom with Charley and anyone he's collaborating at the present. Simply brainstorm through all the new concepts and set up a plan of action.

However, I do agree with akiharu here, it does seem very unfriendly to start working on converting the script and gathering more managing members before you've actually reached an agreement on the fate of the server, and made an actual plan of action. I do realize that Drake's time is limited, but it would definitely be better to execute this properly rather than on short notice. Plus, you just might have the chances of gathering a scripting team, so progress won't be reliant on just one member of the community.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 08:02:39 pm by ferrari32 »
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Charley

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Re: XE
« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2016, 11:35:59 pm »
Okay, I am swayed by some of these points. I'll post again tomorrow after I'm home from work.

Edit:- make that tomorrow morning.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 09:11:54 pm by Charley »
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Charley

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Re: XE
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2016, 12:45:24 pm »
Right, here we go.

I have paused development of the new server so that we can have a proper discussion. I admit that I was too fast going into this, it was unfair. However, I was presented by Drake with a sort of 'now or never' ultimatum, I felt as though it was a case where if we weren't to do it now, it would not get done. Consideration for the current staff team, more specifically Aki, then fell by the wayside. Having looked a little bit at the process of converting the script to 0.4, however, I can see that it isn't nearly as complicated as I had thought it would be. If it happens that Drake no longer has time, or that he decides this isn't really what he wants, then it will be possible to accomplish our ends via other means.

So let's chat, but let's not stretch this conversation out too long. I am busy, and I appreciate other people here, including Aki, are probably quite busy too. However if we focus on engaging in a concise, matter-of-fact dialogue then I think we can come to some conclusions in a timely manner.

Allow me to summarise my proposals:

  • We open XE again, using a converted version of the old script. Like before, it will be a strictly TDM script, with little or no RPG elements.
  • We reform the old management structure, creating a tiered system whereby the highest rank will be managing admin, the second-highest admin, and the third-highest moderator. All managing admins are accountable to each other, and no single person has ultimate control over the forum, server, or IRC channels.
  • We take in a large cohort of new administration staff, opening the server up to the community again. Almost everyone should be given a chance to prove themselves somehow, and if they mess it up, then they will be removed from the staff. There is no such thing as 'too many admins', as long as the admins are good and there is a system in place to keep them in check.
  • In addition to the administration roles, I will serve as a 'server coordinator', responsible for overseeing the conversion of the script, recruiting (and training where necessary) the new staff team, and providing guidance for decisions based on the values of XE and the norms established over its history. I am accountable to the managing admins, and if they decide by vote that I should no longer be in post, then they have every right to remove me. After the initial staff team is established it will be the managing admins who are ultimately responsible for recruiting new staff, not me, thus protecting the team from any long-term bias based on my choice of who to appoint.
  • We renounce the idea of personal ownership over this server. The community owns and runs the server.
  • We establish a constitutional rule that no one clan can possess more than 25% of the staff roles. Put another way: if VU members make up 25% of the staff team, no more VUs can be accepted until this number has dropped.

I hope that the rationale behind these proposals is obvious, however if you would like it explained for any of them I would be more than happy to oblige. I look forward to your answer, Aki.
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Sahaj/Blurry

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Re: XE
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2016, 03:37:07 pm »
Hello Charley. I appreciate your efforts in reviving XE. You may not know me but I was one of the last serving managers along with krystianoo who tried to revive XE. And we were quite successful initially however in the long run all our efforts, planning went in vain because George was too busy in his life due to which he couldn't complete the scripting effectively. Honestly, I have always wished that someday you and Aki would put everything back in the past and come together not just for XE but for the sake of community. And as most of you already know (except charley), I quit XE staff along with krys after we failed to revive XE. I hope you won't mind if I gave my inputs as an ex staff member or rather a community member.


"Almost everyone should be given a chance to prove themselves somehow, and if they mess it up, then they will be removed from the staff."
Assuming most of the applications here means 75-80% apps will be accepted.
I don't think this is right. The applications should be accepted as per the election process wherein each staff member's inputs hold equal value. Furthermore, getting into the staff should be hard. Players must know that not everyone can make it to the staff just like that. They must know the value of a staff member. This will not only motivate the players to improve themselves as a whole but also make them respect the serving admins and hence the server.

Sure this will be good in short run as you guys will be able to attract a whole lot of players by this policy but in the long run it is bound to pose problems for the management in terms of extra burden of demoting, reinstating as well for the server's reputation.

"We establish a constitutional rule that no one clan can possess more than 25% of the staff roles. Put another way: if VU members make up 25% of the staff team, no more VUs can be accepted until this number has dropped."
I agree that no clan should have a sort of majority over the staff as it creates a bad mindset among common players that "this particular clan runs the server and decisions would be biased if we dared to report someone from the majority clan." But given the amount of respectable clans we have currently they may increase in the future(I'm talking about years from now) so this number will have to be eventually dropped imo. Just cautioning you at this stage


I completely agree with the rest of the points made by you. This was only the thing that concerned me.

Once again I appreciate your efforts in this whole thing. I wish the best of luck to both sides in finally reaching a consensus and start working towards rebuilding XE for the community. I don't think I will ever return to this game because of life but let me tell you I'd be the most happiest person in this world if XE is revived.
Best wishes!
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Sahaj/Blurry

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Re: XE
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2016, 03:59:17 pm »
I don't have the edit option while posting as a guest. I just wanted to ask some more questions regarding the 25% clan share policy?

Are you saying 25% after excluding non-clan staff members, i.e the people without any clans? If not then how much quota do you intend to give to those people who don't have any clans?

Also, suppose I'm player X. VU already makes up 25% of the staff. And now I decided to join VU and I got accepted, then what about my staff level? Will there be an exception or my staff level will be dropped? Please answer. Thanks
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Charley

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Re: XE
« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2016, 04:16:00 pm »
Hi Blurry, thanks for your input, it is very appreciated. Good questions.


I don't think this is right. The applications should be accepted as per the election process wherein each staff member's inputs hold equal value. Furthermore, getting into the staff should be hard. Players must know that not everyone can make it to the staff just like that. They must know the value of a staff member. This will not only motivate the players to improve themselves as a whole but also make them respect the serving admins and hence the server.

Sure this will be good in short run as you guys will be able to attract a whole lot of players by this policy but in the long run it is bound to pose problems for the management in terms of extra burden of demoting, reinstating as well for the server's reputation.

I completely agree, and that's why I mentioned that this is only how it will work initially. We draw as many players to help as possible to begin with, and give them the potential for a little ownership over the server, so that the community can be built again. It is only once we have a good team of managing admins that we can start to be more selective. Once the server is up and running again, the application process will go back to being exactly how it was in the past, with staff members giving their opinions and voting on whether an applicant should be accepted or not.

Quote
But given the amount of respectable clans we have currently they may increase in the future(I'm talking about years from now) so this number will have to be eventually dropped imo. Just cautioning you at this stage

I'm not sure exactly what you mean - how will a rise in the number of influential clans affect this? If the rule is constitutional, then it will take a majority vote from the staff to change it.
 
Are you saying 25% after excluding non-clan staff members, i.e the people without any clans? If not then how much quota do you intend to give to those people who don't have any clans?

I mean 25% overall, of all the staff, including clanless and clan members.

Quote
Also, suppose I'm player X. VU already makes up 25% of the staff. And now I decided to join VU and I got accepted, then what about my staff level? Will there be an exception or my staff level will be dropped? Please answer. Thanks

In cases like these, there would have to be a discussion between managing admins, VU and you, player X. It would have to be treated on a case-by-case basis. The possible solutions would be these:

  • An exception gets made, and 25% becomes an aim rather than a reality.
  • Remove from the staff an inactive VU, player Z, and replace him with player X, with the permission of player Z. If player Z cannot be reached, then with the permission of VU.
  • Player X must decide to either keep his position in XE or join VU, but not both.

I hope I've answered all of your questions satisfactorily.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 04:25:43 pm by Charley »
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GangstaRas

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Re: XE
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2016, 06:29:32 pm »

Quote
But given the amount of respectable clans we have currently they may increase in the future(I'm talking about years from now) so this number will have to be eventually dropped imo. Just cautioning you at this stage

I'm not sure exactly what you mean - how will a rise in the number of influential clans affect this? If the rule is constitutional, then it will take a majority vote from the staff to change it.


I think what he means is that this percentage value at the moment should only be used to bring across your idea but the figure itself is not plausible. By saying 25%, you are saying that there are only 4 clans in existence that can make up staff if all staff members are apart of a clan. The clan variety is obviously wider than just 4 and so whatever figure that is to be used would have to continually express that, hence its eventual drop as time progresses in the fairness of new clans. An absolute value would have to be used instead e.g. 10 per clan or something.


My issue with it though and I see it as a continual trend for all servers, is the viewpoint that shares need to be established for fairness; let me address that this is not how fairness is issued. For if you so happen to have a clan member that is far beyond expectations to be qualified for a particular staff work, are you really going to deny him because you already have x amount of his clan buddies on board? Similarly would you recognize his ability and as such kick one of the less gifted staff members from his clan to uphold the staff share when you add in the "better" guy? What if a vast majority of members that are appointed from only one particular clan are just handsdown the best persons you've ever came acrossed, both morally and functionally? What if there's an unsure potential cream from the crop member that is in a clan that has bad reputation? Would his affiliation affect your choice? What do you really do? The system is bullshit.

The underlying problem is that you all care too much about opinions from people that you probably cant hold a sensible moral conversation with. Dont deny a capable person and dont kick the less capable but very functional person for the sake of saying "this is an unbiased staff". Instead, you guys need to do 2 very essential things:

  • Hold your chest high and stand by the decisions you make in having the best staff extracted from the community. This means you value the individuals more than their associations.
  • Be welcoming. When you're welcoming you will know the community a lot more than just the scope of the clan members of a ruling person(s) in charge of the server. When you're welcoming you definitely wont just full the staff of your clan buddies either

So to fully exercise this cuz the efforts so far by Charley have been welcoming of the community, dissolve the need of "a balance". The message is to everyone, you dont need a balance, you need a change of focus. Watch the individual, not the clan
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Charley

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Re: XE
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2016, 11:32:17 pm »

By saying 25%, you are saying that there are only 4 clans in existence that can make up staff if all staff members are apart of a clan.


I think this is a misunderstanding. What I proposed was that members of one clan can hold a maximum of 25% of staff posts, not that each clan should hold 25%. I didn't propose any limits or restrictions beyond the maximum 25%. So it could be, for instance, that the make up of the staff team looks like this: VU 25%; DnA 15%; MK 10%; UF 10%; TRC 5%; clanless 35%.

Quote
My issue with it though and I see it as a continual trend for all servers, is the viewpoint that shares need to be established for fairness; let me address that this is not how fairness is issued... The system is bullshit.

Again I think this is a misunderstanding. The rationale behind what I suggested was not one based on fairness, it was one based on the safeguarding of the server. If one clan holds a majority of power, then it puts the server at a high risk of being disrupted by issues from within that clan. Issues that have nothing to do with the server. For instance, if the clan were to split into two rival, opposing clans, like it did with ULK1 and ULK2, then it can cause absolute disaster. Equally, power relationships between members of the dominant clan stand a chance of superseding the power relationships put in place in the server's management system.

Whilst ULK ran XE it began very well, because as you said, people were selected because they knew the game, knew how to administrate properly, and were overall decent at their assigned tasks. However, as time went on, politics related to ULK, both internal and external, caused innumerable issues for the server, and ultimately contributed to its downfall. ULK made themselves integral to the effective running of the server, and while this was of benefit to begin with, it had awful consequences afterwards, and there was nothing anyone else could do about it (and believe me, I tried).

My proposal is aimed at preventing this from happening again, so that the server's existence does not rely on the cohesion of one particular group that has nothing officially to do with the server.

Of course, as with every system, there are pros and cons. And one of the big cons is that it would mean that some people who are very able and worthy cannot be a part of the staff team. The question is whether the pros of safeguarding the server outweigh the cons of a few able individuals not being able to join the staff team.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 11:35:32 pm by Charley »
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honor

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Re: XE
« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2016, 09:36:14 am »
Equality is not a consequence of Restricting and limitations.But dictating the community and it's abilities.We dont need such a system like this for the new server.

Becuase,while considering applications,this would be already something we could discuss among the staff members per application of a player.And the server will be a product of collabration.Think about it.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 05:24:21 pm by honor »
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Charley

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Re: XE
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2016, 07:27:52 pm »
As you guys wish. I am not set on the 25% rule, it was just a suggestion that I think will be of long-term benefit to the server. It is not essential, though.
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Re: XE
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2016, 12:33:38 am »
The perfect time to repost this:
have fun watching.
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Sahaj/Blurry

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Re: XE
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2016, 06:14:28 am »
As you guys wish. I am not set on the 25% rule, it was just a suggestion that I think will be of long-term benefit to the server. It is not essential, though.
Hello there once again. Since the practicability of the above proposed system is in question, in order to prevent the development of "biased decision" mindset among the players, I suggest the following:

We introduce an independent court system/jury system/committee that will be responsible for deciding the fate of the reports. The members of this committee can comprise either the trusted non clan people(those without any clans) OR we could allow all respectable clans to nominate 2 members each who'll be part of this committee or a combination of both (non clan people and 2-2 clan members from each clan). The committee will decide the fate of the report on the basis of majority votes after seeing the evidence and hearing from all sides. The degree or scope of power/privileges to be given to the committee members both in-game and on forums, and the requirements a clan must pass in order to nominate their member(s) in the committee + other related things, can be discussed later if we all come to an agreement on this.


There's one more thing that has constantly bothered me in the past is the lack of a perfect set of forum rules. Since we're going to start afresh this time around, I suggest we make the necessary and much needed amendments to the forum rules as well in order to keep the forums clean and friendly for all. Have a look at these- https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=4045-USHJ-3810
I feel this is the perfect set of rules for a forum. We could take inspiration from these and lay down our own set of rules.
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Dr.Shawn

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Re: XE
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2016, 07:09:11 am »
Rate an agree or disagree on Blurry's post above if you feel that it might work out.
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Charley

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Re: XE
« Reply #58 on: April 03, 2016, 04:18:39 pm »
I don't quite understand, which 'reports' are you referencing Blurry?

If you are talking about reports of admin abuse, I agree with the system, and in fact it's something I had suggested but not explained in this post - as you can see, some admins are part of the 'discipline team'. What I hadn't explained is that I thought it would be a good idea to model the management in a similar way to how we do in VU, with different circles (admin/discipline, recruitment, development).

But what I am referencing in my proposal and in the explanation above is not just admin abuse, it's pervasive systemic bias in staff-related actions, and the security of the server becoming contingent on the cohesion of one particular group, i.e. a clan. Systemic bias would influence the treatment of admin abuse reports, however it would also influence the selection of new staff, the power relations amongst staff, and the development of the server (which new features/rules/events get approved or denied). Once again, the three areas that the staff work in, which we need to bear in mind in all discussions of management: admin/discipline, recruitment, and development.

The security contingency I mention is the fear that were the server to become reliant on one group running it, then if that group splits or has problems, the server stands a high chance of also splitting or having problems. The example of this having happened in the past is ULK, and the obvious example of this potentially happening in the future is VU. As the ex-leader and a current member of VU I don't see this as a likely eventuality, however anything is possible, and I am trying to suggest a system that would protect the server from any issues that VU might have. I am also trying to protect my clan from being accused of bias/domination when the server is running, as ULK frequently was (sometimes rightly, sometimes not).

On a side note: Aki, your input would be appreciated if it were sooner rather than later. As I said previously, it would be nice if this conversation doesn't have to last too long, and we can actually start making this thing.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 04:20:38 pm by Charley »
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Re: XE
« Reply #59 on: April 03, 2016, 05:50:12 pm »
Yes, I was talking about admin reports.


But what I am referencing in my proposal and in the explanation above is not just admin abuse, it's pervasive systemic bias in staff-related actions, and the security of the server becoming contingent on the cohesion of one particular group, i.e. a clan. Systemic bias would influence the treatment of admin abuse reports, however it would also influence the selection of new staff, the power relations amongst staff, and the development of the server (which new features/rules/events get approved or denied). Once again, the three areas that the staff work in, which we need to bear in mind in all discussions of management: admin/discipline, recruitment, and development.
Okay I see what you're trying to say. But there's still a lot more to discuss about the system you proposed in that post.

But before engaging into any further discussion, I would like to raise an important issue from the point of view of Current XE Staff Members. Honestly, I see some hope for a collaboration between you and aki, but the way things have gone by, I feel they have been totally disrespectful and displeasing to the current XE staff members to say the least.

No offense to anyone who's willing to help rebuild XE responsibly, but I request you to lock the apps. thread and declare all selections made as "invalid" immediately otherwise in my opinion I think there's very little chance that the talks for collaboration will ever take place. The current staff members feel completely ripped off for they have proven their worth in the past and earned their places into the staff via election system (I can assure you that not even single one of them were appointed directly by the management and on top of that they went through a evaluation under my and krys' management wherein the inactive and non caring people were totally demoted), also according to the staff members, they feel since the apps were made on VU forums it makes zero sense to them. Even though you have paused the development, there are still some people applying due to which the current staff members are not really sure about this whole thing - whether you really want a discussion or are just dictating your own terms. I assume aki will post on behalf of the XE staff here, so it is most likely that he will raise the aforementioned points.

Furthermore, I feel they must remain a part of staff in future automatically not just because of the things I stated above but also because of their enthusiasm and interest in this whole thing. It has been a year since XE went completely dysfunctional and yet they show the same amount of enthusiasm as earlier into reviving XE, that in itself is commendable.

Please think about what I said and do what's best for their interests.
Thanks
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